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Jeepers View Drop Down
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    Posted: 25 Sep 14 at 3:00pm
"Why should you? Why would you reduce your pleasure from sailing a boat by being grossly over or under-powered when there's a viable solution to that isse?"

Most popular sports I can think of seek to create a reasonably level playing field - give everyone an equal opportunity. Would even a Sunday football team allow one side 12 players instead of 11 because one side would find it more enjoyable to do so? Would it be permitted for a cricket team to use bats a foot wide because the conditions favour swing bowling and they aren't very good with that. Because to do so would make the activity a laughing stock. It's hard enough trying to create a level playing field in handicap racing with all the issues over PY, a free for all on sail-sizes, that would without doubt favour lighter people wouldn't, imho, be good for the cohesiveness of the class in question or for that matter, sailing as a sport that wants to be taken seriously.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 14 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by iGRF



Has anyone ever put a sym kite on a single hander?


I've seen S/H Mirror dinghies do it on a regular basis!
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Roger View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 14 at 3:04pm
Originally posted by iGRF



Has anyone ever put a sym kite on a single hander?


Not yet, but I bet with the twin pole spiros used on 505s and Scorpions etc it would not be too difficult, be one hell of a lot of ropes led back to the helms position though.


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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 14 at 3:16pm
Multiple rig boats are a PITA. You up the cost of entry significantly, because you've got to buy three sails and masts,OK the sails last longer, but you still have to buy them.. Then often the race winner is defined not so much by who sailed the best as by who picked the right rig.

I would say that there would be a case for issuing a new and lower handicap to any boat that's using different size rigs in different weather. Its not as clear cut as you might think though. At my club we have an octagenarian who has a storm sail for his Solo that gets pulled out when its windy so he can sail when he'd be otherwise be unable to. Its not fast, and he never does very well with it, but it gets him out there. It would be pretty hard hearted to drop his regular handicap because of it...

Edited by JimC - 25 Sep 14 at 3:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 14 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by Jeepers

sailing as a sport that wants to be taken seriously.

then why look like a bunch of rules nerds and jim-jam folders that tell someone what they can and can't do with their new boat?

do the rules make a crew put up a kite when it's blowing a hoolie?

what about reefing down- should that be banned?

what about a cut down Phantom sail, or rolling your topper sail around the mast?

I used a Number 2 Genoa on a one design keelboat once, should that be chucked out too?

Being able to adjust the sail size shouldn't be prevented, not when someone's gone to the effort to design three of them to cover the entire wind range.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 14 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by Roger

Originally posted by iGRF



Has anyone ever put a sym kite on a single hander?


Not yet, but I bet with the twin pole spiros used on 505s and Scorpions etc it would not be too difficult, be one hell of a lot of ropes led back to the helms position though.



I thought about doing that to my Solo- then realised a cheaper option would be to buy an old miracle and get P&B to put twins on it....  the idea lost momentum, but the concept is still sound.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 14 at 3:24pm
It just occurred to me in one of my 'how can I make this EPS better' moments that if I had a pole extended forward from the boom, when square running it could provide the base for a kite hoisted from a washer women style bag in the boat, was just a thought. It would have to be one that works inside out as well so both gybes were covered. Probably wouldn't be much good other than for square running but on small ponds that could be some use.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 14 at 3:30pm
I expect handicap will be handicap and class regattas will be whatever size you enter. 

In a club series its up to the sailing committee, but if you want a series result enter with one rig and then if its howling you can go down a size, but carry the handicap of the largest rig you entered. That is effectively what we do, so you can either enter each race with a different rig, be handicapped accordingly, but will get no series result because you have two separate series entries. or you can enter with a full, but put a radial on if its howling, you get the full rig handicap and a series result. Its no different to zipping up the bottom of the 600 sail or reefing the wayfarer.

However I doubt the main intention is to change sails all the time, but it will happen for some people in the middle of a range. The sail sizes have been developed for different sized people and I suspect that the 7,will be the biggest seller by quite a way. It will be the 'radial' equivalent.

I am thinking of buying a 7.4 because most of our club orders are that and use that for the weekend races, but also get a 9 for the lighter midweek evening races and enter each series accordingly. By the end of a season I may settle on the 9 for everything.

I agree with Kneewrecket, that on the 100 the 8.4 was a much sweeter sail than the 10.2 upwind and in any real wind felt faster. In the aero i suspect the 9 will have a small edge upwind up to the early tens and after that the 7 be as fast. Off the wind the 9 will be faster although that advantage will also disappear in a howler.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jeepers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 14 at 3:37pm
Well, I've got the day off for decorating purposes, and arguing the toss is so much more interesting ...

do the rules make a crew put up a kite when it's blowing a hoolie? No, but not do so implies that you accept those that do will blow you away, so no advantage.

what about reefing down- should that be banned? Reefing down rarely wins any races in dinghies, just too un-aerodynamic. No advantage.

what about a cut down Phantom sail, or rolling your topper sail around the mast? Same as above.

I used a Number 2 Genoa on a one design keelboat once, should that be chucked out too? Keelboat racing? Not my bag for many reasons one being the number and cost of sails you DO need to be competitive!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 14 at 3:49pm
arguing the toss... yep, good fun innit?

a boat that doesn't choose to hoist its kite that gets around cleanly will probably beat one that's pis5ed it in with its knickers hanging out....

Reefing is quicker in dinghy in certain conditions.  Although I accept that it's been a long time since I rolled a topper sail, and today's kids might just stick their 4.2 sail up now they've got access to one.

Keelboat Racing - I was using a little poetic licence, iirc I was sat freezing my arse off, toe rail digging into the backs of my legs, wire across my guts.  Those in the higher echelons of the 'crew' were instructed by some fat b**tard in the cockpit to change to the Number 2.  All I could think was that if the feeling of puking down the front of my jacket switched to changing to a 'Number 2' then the following two hours was about to become a whole lot more displeasurable than it already was.




Edited by kneewrecker - 25 Sep 14 at 3:59pm
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