D-Zero

Dan

Both of these are good ideas.  I'm not sure you really need some tame stigs for option (1).  If the manufacturer provided 2 boats that were given to a couple of competent club sailors sailing at a club with competitive handicap racing it wouldn't be too hard to calculate the pre-EN as long as you had some reference results with them sailing their normal class against the same boats.  I reckon a couple of months of results would be enough to establish a pre-EN.  You would need at least two boats at two different clubs though to cover relative performance between different classes.

Not so sure about the "IMS-style VPP" approach - tough to do that for a dinghy and tough to get enough results to cover the design space  - I'm not sure that it would end up any better than a regression analysis with a very coarse "design goodness" factor included (to reflect the difference in target markets) . . . and the regression analysis would be a lot easier to do. 

I have always thought that a published regression analysis would be a good way to go for the pre-EN.  It would be a known ("published") approach, and although designers might be able to game the rule, the existing performance based analysis that would kick in after year 1 would make that a short-lived gain. [Trouble is when Peaky did that Grf didn't like the answer ]

Whatever you do, clubs will always have the right to set whatever PNs they want for new classes.  Its up to the competitors to then decide whether they want to race under those conditions.


Edited by marke - 20 Sep 14 at 7:20pm

Originally posted by rich96 Its always a shame to lose a customer but perhaps a silver lining in this case ? Could be wrong but I'm sure we could all imagine the negative posts about the boat within a number of weeks when those pesky Solos and Streakers are still winning at the lake ?

Do you see posts about pesky Solos and Streakers winning each week as it is? You might get the odd tale of woe, but you still don't get it do you? If you're improving which I like to think i am, it's a slow process these days, you need goals and beating a Streaker in particular, not the duffer, this guy is good is a target not yet attained, not even off 1060 against 1174, which they've given me and I don't like that eithr, but they have,I guess it gets spat out of that other computerised bollox system. I want to sail a boat to its proper handicap, that is my goal. So the handicap being attainable is part of any purchasing decision for me. To be honest according to the stats it's around Laser 8.1 territory which is raced quite competitively and I've never managed to beat either unless he falls in or something breaks and that's not a victory.

Anyway it's all academic, I'm that annoyed (as you may have noticed and in all seriousness I do probably owe y'all a bit of an apology going on so, it happens like that with me I get wound up like a watch spring) so I'm going to give it a break for a while, sailing that is, maybe do something else, you can spend only so much time butting your head against a wall, my crew is not that well, I don't really like single handing it's no different to windsurfing really and maybe this will all settle and once they get some sort of reliable handicap that I see as attainable maybe I'll return, but for now I think it's time to call it a day.

At least your Yardstick muppets will get some peace, duffers that they are, I can't tell you how incandescent that statement made me, I had to go down to the stable to kick the horses, then I realised we didn't have any so spent the afternoon burning old sails stored there.

f**k them is my last word on the matter with all due defiance, f**k them all.

Edited by iGRF - 20 Sep 14 at 5:34pm

And we wait for the next I-ncarnation.

Well, I for one am sorry to hear that. It's a shame that so many people fail to accept that the system could be improved (I don't just mean the PY system, but the whole organisation of club and handicap racing). If the RYA cared more for it, there would be no need for the disparate group of bodies that have sprung up such as Sailracer, Sailjuice, Sailwave, etc that are valiantly trying to fill the void the RYA has created.

No, no. Not confused. I know it is the Great Lakes group that publish an alternative set of numbers, but the RYA lack of involvement goes far beyond estimating PYs for new classes and being tardy (historically) in accurately updating them (though that issue now appears to be resolved).

Sailracer do a great job of collating, publishing and analysing results and both they and Sailjuice organise events. I am very glad they do, but I believe the RYA should be doing. the RYA have been slow to recognise that handicap racing is now the majority aspect of the sport, it does very little to support it beyond publishing the PY list once a year and even that list isn't used at the main events!

I believe the RYA should organise a calendar of endorsed events, a national handicap circuit of you like. The Sailjuice series has become the de facto national circuit but it has no RYA involvement at all afaik. There are a handful of classes that can continue to exist in their own bubble with little regard for handicap racing, but the other classes are deluding themselves if they think they are 'above' it.