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gordon1277 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon1277 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: D-Zero
    Posted: 20 Sep 14 at 11:31am
Actually
I dont think either will be handicapped out of existence because I have heard from a top ten Phantom sailor that he regularly gets beaten on the water by an Aero 9.
So The Aero sailing of above 1002 is possibly a bandit, and people seem to think the zero is virtually the same speed.
Until we see how these boats do in a handicap race like Sunday who realy knows the answer to what speed they are.
Both guys sailing the Zero are very good sailors so it should be a decent result.
Gordon
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 14 at 11:41am
Originally posted by winging it


The D zero is interesting.  At Hunts Jeffers is sailing off the PY recommended by its designer.  Glad you recognise the outboard was duff, shame your mate didn't own up to it. 



I'm glad he has a club that operates that way and I'm sure he'll enjoy it, it's a very good boat.

As for the outboard motor all I heard was those duff dinghy sailors are whining about something they clearly don't understand, I did comment, 'that's what you get when you mix dinghy sailors and engines, not to mention the additional toxic element.. females and engines.

Oh and he's not my mate, he just works for us, as nice and honest a lad you couldn't wish to meet and the last person you'd want to expose to dinghy sailors. He'll learn.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Thunder Road Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 14 at 11:45am
[QUOTE=iGRF]Are you interested in the D Zero? Or the fact its been nobbled by the association for the preservation of the status
No it hasn't Angry
Finn GBR16 Thunder Road.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iiitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 14 at 3:11pm
Oh really.....no one stops me sailing, no one stops me racing. I think that most PY's are about right. As I said before a tow bar and trailer takes you to venues where identical boats sail. Handicaps start crap then improve...just wait, or is your death imminent so that you have to make your mark in a little Kentish club before your demise?

At our club we have fleet racing of a sort, 13 Supernovas, 5 Lightnings and soon to be 6 Bytes, that is good enough for my friends and I. If some one wants more than that they go to opens. Do stop complaining and get on with it....and by the way, I made a good living bothering wood, the wood liked it and I liked it, at least I made my own windows!

I'm off to make a huge trifle now, for Barts Bash where we have double the usual number of sailors turning up. We will have fun, we always have fun, sailing is fun. (for most of us).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 14 at 3:22pm
For once I am with IGRF on this point-

Originally posted by Simon Lovesey

" then guess at a handicap that is worst than the benchmark class so the new design doesn't whip everyone on its first outings.   
"

Having just an inkling of what Dan, Suntouched and RS have put into these new boats, the concept that a third party with influence puts a deliberately uncompetitive py on a new class so it doesn't upset ithe existing designs is just unbelievable. Dan has been adamant that the Dzero (not the punk actually) should be sailing off 1050 or close. RS think the 9 is about 1040. No one else has a cluse yet so why on earth not take the builders py as a start?

No builder wants to start with a py that's miles away and you would expect to improve slightly as people learn how to sail the boat. 

Py is fundementally flawed as it only measures one metric, but to then say we actually give all boats a deliberately low py to start with so they don't upset anyone is just so wrong. I think Simon might want to reflect on that statement. Perhaps it's why boats like the Alto, icon etc have struggled. 

You could just see that in F1 couldn't you....... 

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2547 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 14 at 4:18pm
Laser 4000 won the then prestigious grafham gp on its first showing. 

New classes need all the help they can get not knobbling. 


Edited by 2547 - 20 Sep 14 at 4:18pm
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Simon Lovesey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon Lovesey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 14 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by SimonW99

For once I am with IGRF on this point-

Originally posted by Simon Lovesey

" then guess at a handicap that is worst than the benchmark class so the new design doesn't whip everyone on its first outings.   
"
Py is fundementally flawed as it only measures one metric, but to then say we actually give all boats a deliberately low py to start with so they don't upset anyone is just so wrong. I think Simon might want to reflect on that statement. Perhaps it's why boats like the Alto, icon etc have struggled. 



I was merely stating what I observe happening,  I actually do NOT set these handicaps

I then go on to say I believe there may be a better way of doing things....
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 14 at 4:34pm
The general idea of a handicap is to provide as fair racing as possible for as many as possible. In the case of an event where you have, say, 99% of entrants with boats which are of classes with an established handicap, and 1% with boats of new classes without a handicap, when you make a guess at a handicap for the unknown, should you tend to err on the low side, and disadvantage the 1% against the 99%, or on the high side and disadvantage the 99% against the 1%?
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Daniel Holman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 14 at 4:48pm
"RS think the Aero 9 is about 1040..." So that's where that number, 45 points above the GL number came from on the first battle of classes list then Simon.. Wink

2547 - Playing devil's advocate, the sport is fragmented between a lot of classes already - perhaps we should aim to follow a more french model of a few core classes.

For what its worth I think that the system as is works well, and I am very grateful to Chris, Bas, Jim and anyone who was worked voluntarily on it, and I believe that it has made real steps forward in the last couple of years.

I guess that re: launching a product, I had underestimated again what an emotive subject it is, and feel pretty sad to lose Graeme as a customer - it is one of the perks of designing for the boat, if not the yardstick, to have given him some pleasure.

The only way that we could do something less arbitary for new boats are:
1) Hire some independent industry professionals to sail the new boat against known benchmarks over an intensive period in the requisite full range of conditions and circumstances, and record performances. Use this as a "Pre EN" until the first year of returns come back when a proper number can be used.
2) Run a few major representative classes (laser, fireball, N12 in vogue design) through an IMS style VPP in light, medium and strong breeze and a representative variety of courses - weight these as necessary. Then when a new class comes out, do the same and use the difference in seconds per hour against the most similar benchmark to get a "Pre EN" -  this means not moving wholesale to such a system, but gives a rigorous engineering basis for the first year until returns are back (poss longer where its a niche class and not many samples in the statistical set)

Option 1 would be like herding cats, but option 2 could be relatively do-able and modest price wise. I suggest it needs to stay the property of the RYA though.
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rich96 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 14 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by Daniel Holman

" I guess that re: launching a product, I had underestimated again what an emotive subject it is, and feel pretty sad to lose Graeme as a customer"


Its always a shame to lose a customer but perhaps a silver lining in this case ?

Could be wrong but I'm sure we could all imagine the negative posts about the boat within a number of weeks when those pesky Solos and Streakers are still winning at the lake ?
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