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AlexM View Drop Down
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    Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 8:45pm
Those new road bases with the metal struts look like proper shin bashers. Keep hold of old ones I think.

You the gap in the trolley for the self bailer, going to have to make sure you come on square each time or you'll keep bashing it in the cradle.
Like the the halyard idea, a wire halyard just solves so many problems of slipping
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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:23pm
Hi Null

I'm not suggesting any number myself - and could never do so until class 'x' was raced by decent helms in fully competitive races if at all.  It is the handicappers who have the problem ... and in the vacuum of experience they will always er on the side of caution as they did with Icon etc. 

If it looks like a Punk their reasoning will be it probably goes like that  as well .. or are you suggesting it is today considerably slower than Punk or what ?  The alternative is they 'give'you a 'better' number but you are then excluded from any 'chocolates' in major events - if that is what you want ask for it.  I'd just bite the bullet, just get out there and sail like we do in Icon.  I'd rather be in love with a great boat than its (movable) handicap.   Buy those extra coffee cups on the web or down the highstreet. 

Icon handicap ?  The NS number is OK allbeit the obvious differences plus rotating carbon mast etc so not too bad although we think Icon quicker.  Today of course we do have real Icon race results to show over three Sailjuice series.  And what is wrong with using 'champion' quality crew results - if used for all classes and across the board.  We are all after 'boat potential' really are we not ?  Compare the top in each class against each other rather than the newbies at the back of a local club fleets in poor examples is surely better.  The MG comparison can be made as well but would be a bit of a stretch as that has trapeze, spinnaker and rotating carbon mast etc etc ... You could more easily suggest Merlin or Tasar maybe.

Greame - I don't exactly see how Icon has 'found favour' under either alternative.  969 or 979 for Icon !  Previously the GL system had us at 1000 and the year before at 990 - it moves both ways guys.  The GL Blaze handicap dropped to 1030 something a year or so before the PN one did aandnow it is just the other way round ...  Not too many crumbs there.

Performance calculations - well I do have a copy of Dans earlier spreadsheets - and this one has the Blaze at close to 1047..... No I don't think so either and a number of other numbers are 'interesting'.  These are facinating things these spreadsheets and this one takes no account for hull shape - so does hull shape not matter then ?  You will be chasing your tails for ever on that approach - trying to fit a slippery universal  'tape' over such a diverse number of classes.  Your formula will be a 'forever' project, believe me...

So a results based system definately has advantages in terms of practicality so the question is what assumptions or sample selections do you make ?  You do need a truly decent sample sizes to not need to apply some form of sample structuring.  If you do not then 'your' numbers can be called into disrepute if they do not come with a full health warning hence the suggestion of a degree of declared  'human assessment' as well until the numbers (sample size) available climb suffiently.

I'm done -  this one will no doubt run and ...run.  Just race them for heavens sake.  If the boats are over handicapped it will show over time ... I only suggest this reluctantly as I cannot see any real change in 'the system(s)' any time soon.  The 'least worst' in the short term at least has to be the GL approach.  

Anyway I'd rather pack the boat for Sunday's 'Battle of the Classes' thingme at Southampton  now ... it is the end of another long week.... so I'm  going for a web-free weekend ... great therapy.  I strongly recommend it and maybe even a bit of 'sailing' as well.   Sleepy 

Mike L.


Edited by blaze720 - 19 Sep 14 at 9:29pm
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getafix View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:25pm
As I hate having to use rope halyards (stretchy things that break a lot) I'd love to see wire everywhere but I've been told it's "impossible" with external halyards on carbon sticks - what's the arrangement on the zero?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:29pm
It's an external rope for all but the last couple of feet which is wire.
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Null View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:30pm
Originally posted by getafix

As I hate having to use rope halyards (stretchy things that break a lot) I'd love to see wire everywhere but I've been told it's "impossible" with external halyards on carbon sticks - what's the arrangement on the zero?

Same arrangement as on the d1 getafix, basically a 12" wire strop with a ferrelly that pulls down into a wire cleat (see peaks video) neat arrangement ensures halyard is at the same point everytime.  It's a fantastic arrangement.
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Null View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 9:35pm
Mike you have somewhat missed my point, but agree this debate will run, it's already wildly removed from the early stages.

Back to talking about the d0 and how splendid it is...

Sadly I still won't of sailed mine this weekend! Missing barts bash as well which is disgraceful, but I have a mtb enduro race I have been committed to for a while to do.  Got to get my fitness up to sail to py  Wink
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 10:30pm
Interesting that earlier on in the thread GRF suggests getting a Minisail because it has a bandit handicap... all it has is a trial number from Whitefriars, which may have been adopted at other clubs because they asked. The handicap has given me inconsistant results, as the boat is a bit binary, but on average slightly worse than the Lightning, which has a fair few returns.

In reality, the Minisail, despite being a 55 year old design, is in exactly the same position as the Zero, except that there won't be a hundred boats sold this autumn, so it will never get enough returns to even get an EN, I would imagine. However, it shows that a club based number can gain traction - we don't have to wait for it to be imposed on us from "above".

You could always try one out though, grumph - I suspect you would hate it, as it is really, really dated. I like it that way, of course.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Post Options Post Options   Quote branchingfactor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 14 at 4:40am
Here's how you can set the initial PY number accurately. Open a betting market where people can bet on what the PY number will be in one year. Then you use the weighted average predicted PY number to set the initial PY number. If someone wants to improperly influence the initial PY number they can, but it will cost them a lot of money to do so. It's like an ideas future for PY numbers.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon Lovesey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 14 at 7:31am
This has been a fascinating discussion on handicaps for new designs,  but one with plenty of deja-vu over the years

The current practise is to look at the boat specs and compare,  find a similar design  then guess at a handicap that is worst than the benchmark class so the new design doesn't whip everyone on its first outings.  Then as more real data emerges the handicap will tend to rise to its more natural position

IMHO in these days of more data being available and more accessible technology, there should be a better and fairer way of handling new classes,  and I plan to ask this to be added to the agenda to the next PYaG meeting.  

In PYS we now have nearly a million rows of results data with times.  Over the last year SailRacer have also  GPS tracked more than 1,000 races which gives plenty of performance data,  particularly as we have also measured and recorded the course,  often with wind data and sometimes tidal flows.

With all this data I am sure we can do much more.
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winging it View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 14 at 8:57am
This forum has become sad and dull.
the same, but different...

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