D-Zero

Hi Null

I'm not suggesting any number myself - and could never do so until class 'x' was raced by decent helms in fully competitive races if at all.  It is the handicappers who have the problem ... and in the vacuum of experience they will always er on the side of caution as they did with Icon etc. 

If it looks like a Punk their reasoning will be it probably goes like that  as well .. or are you suggesting it is today considerably slower than Punk or what ?  The alternative is they 'give'you a 'better' number but you are then excluded from any 'chocolates' in major events - if that is what you want ask for it.  I'd just bite the bullet, just get out there and sail like we do in Icon.  I'd rather be in love with a great boat than its (movable) handicap.   Buy those extra coffee cups on the web or down the highstreet. 

Icon handicap ?  The NS number is OK allbeit the obvious differences plus rotating carbon mast etc so not too bad although we think Icon quicker.  Today of course we do have real Icon race results to show over three Sailjuice series.  And what is wrong with using 'champion' quality crew results - if used for all classes and across the board.  We are all after 'boat potential' really are we not ?  Compare the top in each class against each other rather than the newbies at the back of a local club fleets in poor examples is surely better.  The MG comparison can be made as well but would be a bit of a stretch as that has trapeze, spinnaker and rotating carbon mast etc etc ... You could more easily suggest Merlin or Tasar maybe.

Greame - I don't exactly see how Icon has 'found favour' under either alternative.  969 or 979 for Icon !  Previously the GL system had us at 1000 and the year before at 990 - it moves both ways guys.  The GL Blaze handicap dropped to 1030 something a year or so before the PN one did aandnow it is just the other way round ...  Not too many crumbs there.

Performance calculations - well I do have a copy of Dans earlier spreadsheets - and this one has the Blaze at close to 1047..... No I don't think so either and a number of other numbers are 'interesting'.  These are facinating things these spreadsheets and this one takes no account for hull shape - so does hull shape not matter then ?  You will be chasing your tails for ever on that approach - trying to fit a slippery universal  'tape' over such a diverse number of classes.  Your formula will be a 'forever' project, believe me...

So a results based system definately has advantages in terms of practicality so the question is what assumptions or sample selections do you make ?  You do need a truly decent sample sizes to not need to apply some form of sample structuring.  If you do not then 'your' numbers can be called into disrepute if they do not come with a full health warning hence the suggestion of a degree of declared  'human assessment' as well until the numbers (sample size) available climb suffiently.

I'm done -  this one will no doubt run and ...run.  Just race them for heavens sake.  If the boats are over handicapped it will show over time ... I only suggest this reluctantly as I cannot see any real change in 'the system(s)' any time soon.  The 'least worst' in the short term at least has to be the GL approach.  

Anyway I'd rather pack the boat for Sunday's 'Battle of the Classes' thingme at Southampton  now ... it is the end of another long week.... so I'm  going for a web-free weekend ... great therapy.  I strongly recommend it and maybe even a bit of 'sailing' as well.    

Mike L.


Edited by blaze720 - 19 Sep 14 at 9:29pm

It's an external rope for all but the last couple of feet which is wire.

Mike you have somewhat missed my point, but agree this debate will run, it's already wildly removed from the early stages.

Here's how you can set the initial PY number accurately. Open a betting market where people can bet on what the PY number will be in one year. Then you use the weighted average predicted PY number to set the initial PY number. If someone wants to improperly influence the initial PY number they can, but it will cost them a lot of money to do so. It's like an ideas future for PY numbers.

This forum has become sad and dull.