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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: D-Zero
    Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 12:11pm
I don't think Russ is that far off-the-mark Simon.  Any comments perceived as negative towards the Aero have been directed more at the hyperbole in their go-to-market approach.  

What can you say about the boat itself:

- would I be wary of a multiple rigs?

Yes, and history would advise me to be

- would I be wary of build quality?

Yes, and history would advise me to be

- would I be wary of boom / bust class development?

yes, and history would advise me to be

- would I buy one if there were 10 others joining in at a local pond

yes, and f*ck all the negative concerns above!

We can't help that controversy makes good forum-fodder, as demonstrated in this thread.  The 'nice one guys' post I put on the R Speculation thread didn't even get a response.  If I'd said 'b**locks' maybe it would?

RS desperately need to get boats out there sailing and sharing their stories- good and bad.  We hear nothing about it, other than the controlled releases from HQ.  Do the Bowmoor guys even have all their boats yet?  What about you guys?  How many are now racing the autumn series?  

All the guys writing up about their first races in D-Zeros is great stuff, theve asked some challenging questions- to which Rodney and Dan have stepped up, answered openly and sharing good ideas across a new fleet.  It's generating an amazing vibe that I won't deny has some FOMO attached, which sadly the Aero is somewhat lacking- for someone without access to fleet racing one, it comes across as a boat that would be nice to sail on holiday only, whereas the Zero feels like something worth being a part of.



Edited by kneewrecker - 19 Sep 14 at 12:13pm
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 12:12pm
Speaking completely personally.
A purist point of view would be that without observed performance it's absurd to issue corrected times. So for classes where a club has no satisfactory handicap perhaps the purist would say the best thing is to only publish elapsed times for those boats, and no corrected times or placings.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by JimC

Speaking completely personally.
A purist point of view would be that without observed performance it's absurd to issue corrected times. So for classes where a club has no satisfactory handicap perhaps the purist would say the best thing is to only publish elapsed times for those boats, and no corrected times or placings.


Clap Clap Clap Clap - a cracking idea!  (Shame it won't happen)
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Punky View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Punky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 12:16pm
Hi Chris,
 
I appreciate that it appears you are in a no win situation, but really if the PYAG can't advise on PY numbers then who can? 
 
The new system is WAY, WAY better at collecting and analysing the data and speeds up the changes (although presumably these will need to be damped over time so that long estanblished stable classes don't get 1 or 2 points fluctuation around a mean every year).  I am grateful and thankful for this, but the oft repeated mantra that the system is for clubs, not classes, and that it is up to each club to individualise the numbers for their own purpose is passing the buck.
 
FWIW I have no problem with paying a fee to get an authorised PY, although classes do already pay a fee to the RYA - what does this go to?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 12:25pm
Originally posted by Rupert


Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Punky


The RYA is the national authority charged with running dinghy sailing in all its forms.  It needs to stand up and be counted.  I don't care if it gets an initial estimate wrong, because they can issue new guidance when evidence shows they are wrong.  But someone has to make the initial estimate and the RYA are based placed to do that - to wash it's hands and say "not our problem" is a deriliction of duty IMO. 

But if they issue a trial number and then the evidence says it is wrong, people like grumph , who only appear to buy a boat if they think the yardstick is favorable, will then jump up and down saying "you can't change the number, my boat hasn't got any faster", with absolutely no regard for the fact that the guessed number will be wrong in the 1st place. If the number is too low, and the PYAG put it up, they will find something else to whinge about - maybe that they bought a boat expecting it to be faster than a so and so, because the number said so, and now it doesn't, and IT IS ALL YOUR FAULT!Now, if there weren't prats around with no willingness to understand the system, then possibly the RYA could get involved in setting a trail number, maybe off the results of something like the Battle of the Classes. Meanwhile, clubs will just have to do what they have always done, and see how boats do on the water. The RYA has never set numbers on no data at all.


I take exception to that, kindly point out to me any new boat I've purchased because I felt it had a favourable handicap.

My purchases.. RS500 sailed off 963 it is now 973
Alto purchased and sailed off 925 it is now 912 but at the time there were no others about.
EPS it's is 1024.

Don't talk bollox.

As for the PYAG I can level that accusation and all they have to fall back on were some returns from a lake co incidentally used by the 'new' licensees of the Icon which were miraculously notified after the 969 and the old licensee forced to give up marketing it.

Had they an agreed formula based in solid fact, backed by their years of experience and a boat shape that never changes around which to pivot their tables, I couldn't argue, but as it is any number of conspiracy theories can be suggested. And these manufacturers? There are times they can't even look each other in the eye they're that defensive, they need to work together on selling the sizzle as well as their individual sausages.

This sort of thing destabilises the very market they rely on, not to mention some of the other un printable suggestions that reach my ears from time to time surrounding enthusiastic fanbois action at organisation level.

It really is childish and unprofessional and I thought the windsurfing business was bad, we're shiny knights in white armour by comparison, we do at least come together when we need to.

Edited by iGRF - 19 Sep 14 at 12:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by JimC

Speaking completely personally.
A purist point of view would be that without observed performance it's absurd to issue corrected times. So for classes where a club has no satisfactory handicap perhaps the purist would say the best thing is to only publish elapsed times for those boats, and no corrected times or placings.



But I want a number NOW. And if the number doesn't mean I beat the Streakers, who are all sailed by numpties for whom I have no respect, then the number is WRONG, and I want a better one NOW.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Blue One Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by Rupert


Originally posted by JimC

Speaking completely personally.
A purist point of view would be that without observed performance it's absurd to issue corrected times. So for classes where a club has no satisfactory handicap perhaps the purist would say the best thing is to only publish elapsed times for those boats, and no corrected times or placings.

But I want a number NOW. And if the number doesn't mean I beat the Streakers, who are all sailed by numpties for whom I have no respect, then the number is WRONG, and I want a better one NOW.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by Rupert


Originally posted by JimC

Speaking completely personally.
A purist point of view would be that without observed performance it's absurd to issue corrected times. So for classes where a club has no satisfactory handicap perhaps the purist would say the best thing is to only publish elapsed times for those boats, and no corrected times or placings.

But I want a number NOW. And if the number doesn't mean I beat the Streakers, who are all sailed by numpties for whom I have no respect, then the number is WRONG, and I want a better one NOW.


Says the man in the biggest bandit of them all
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Punky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by JimC

Speaking completely personally.
A purist point of view would be that without observed performance it's absurd to issue corrected times. So for classes where a club has no satisfactory handicap perhaps the purist would say the best thing is to only publish elapsed times for those boats, and no corrected times or placings.

Whilst I can actually see some appeal in that, it is clearly unsatisfactory - who would buy a new boat knowing they can't effectively race for a year?  Personally I would (and have), but we all know many wouldn't and who could blame them.
 
Should the Laser, Blaze, 505, Merlin, Cherub etc lose their right to a PY if they change the class rules and wait until there are sufficient returns to make a case?  That won't encourage participation or development!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 12:34pm
What you need is a pro active committee, that actually does issue these numbers, that come out of their smoke filled rooms, travels around a bit and interacts with the trade and the sailors and realises they have a problem.
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