New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: D-Zero
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

D-Zero
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 6263646566 159>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Punky View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 11 Feb 14
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 90 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Punky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: D-Zero
    Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 11:48am
Originally posted by JimC

  The PYAG folk have more sense than to get in the fools game of guessing what handicaps might be for new classes.
 
So who should make that guess estimate in your view? 
 
The manufacturer (who will be perceived as having no particular incentive to suggest an accurate one) or race organisers (which will lead to inconsistencies and cries of "how should we know"?)?
 
The RYA is the national authority charged with running dinghy sailing in all its forms.  It needs to stand up and be counted.  I don't care if it gets an initial estimate wrong, because they can issue new guidance when evidence shows they are wrong.  But someone has to make the initial estimate and the RYA are based placed to do that - to wash it's hands and say "not our problem" is a deriliction of duty IMO. 
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 11:33am
Can i just add, nobody in this day and age buys or even enquires about a racing dinghy without asking what its handicap is, don't be naive.

Have the balls to actually state what the boat is and let the consumer decide if he thinks he or she is capable of sailing it to that target. Then don't allow the target to be changed just because a lot of them end up in 'MuddyPond in the wold' if they want to change it for their location then fine but don't force their choice on the rest of us.

Edited by iGRF - 19 Sep 14 at 11:35am
Snow Equipment Deals    New Core Kite website
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 11:33am
Originally posted by kneewrecker

but it will have historical returns


Published Py numbers are strictly based on recent data. Way over a hundred classes have dropped off the Py list since the 50s and doubtless more will in the future. Portsmouth Yardstick is an observed performance system, and numbers are only published for classes where there's enough recent data to justify publishing one. I suspect I'd be correct in suggesting that the PYAG folk have more sense than to get in the fools game of guessing what handicaps might be for new classes.

Edited by JimC - 19 Sep 14 at 11:53am
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 11:26am
Originally posted by Null


]2) You spoke with the MD of RS yesterday, then decided to cancel you order with their direct competitors product......


What actually happened, I spoke with all the RS folk about other stuff, even met Mark down there, organised a demo boat for a week for my club and the lake folk there is at least one member down there interested in it as well. I have no personal interest in the Aero having tried it and even if I had, these events would have forced cancellation of that as well until something is settled.
Then driving back, Rodney rang me to tel me it was coming next Thursday at which point I was happy the wait was over, it was only once home and picking up I think it was on Facebook, that the red mist about the 1010 thing came down, then I mailed the cancellation if you want the absolutely correct timeline.

I'm still very angry, & frustrated and have now mailed Bas Edmonds, if you must know. These trade folk need to get into a room together and sort this out, it is ridiculous, I'm not going to buy something that will be worth half what i pay for it in a few months time, either Aero or Zero simply because other forces decide what it's performance capability should be.

Edited by iGRF - 19 Sep 14 at 11:27am
Snow Equipment Deals    New Core Kite website
Back to Top
blaze720 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 28 Sep 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 11:07am
This one has been 'done to death' already surely .... and do not expect too much 'official feedback' from anyone.  So if you like the boat sail it primarily because of that as PNs will shift around over time anyway.

I do however suggest doing the Sailjuice events as a priority.  The in-built 'weighting' is that most classes are sailed by good(ish) crews who are mostly sailing decent competitive boats (ie no significant dilution by a 'mass' of less-than-competitive (no travelling) club returns.    

Call it a 'semi-structured' sample if you like .. or at least one that reduces the dilution effects of 'mass returns' ...after all what we really want to know, and race with, is the potential of the boat netted out so that the handicap results is more likely to be determined by 'skill' or otherwise  ...of  the jockey(s).

The 'raw' Portsmouth system does not explicitly seek the potential of any boat - all it does is average what returns are made for any and all classes - regardless of other factors however critical they might actually be.....   Want a ‘great’ PN ?  Well don’t buy anything ‘new’ at all ... get a good example but of an older class with plenty of clapped out examples that are raced at great many clubs, and ideally by a fleet with a ‘wide spread of abilities’ apparent.  Their returns are just what you need if you want a class with PN ‘potential’ sunshine  ...

Could there be a better approach ? .... of course.  But currently don't expect too many favours - so bring along your new 'best friend' boats along to sailjuice and bang in some results.  

 If the boat is a good one and you like it ... well race it anyway and never ever buy a boat because of its (current) PN or EN or estimated number.  Sail and race it because you like and enjoy  the boat.  Remember you can always get a few decent coffee cups in just about any high street      Wink

Mike L.

PS - But any boat that beats us in our Icon (substitute name for your class if you must) ... Remember Rule One ?    Yes -  that's right 'other' boats that beat 'us' are de facto handicap bandits ... and naturally if we should prevail - as we should well that is of course simply skill.  See a few of you at Southampton on Sunday ....



Edited by blaze720 - 19 Sep 14 at 11:32am
Back to Top
kneewrecker View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 09 Apr 14
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 11:03am
Anyone want to bet against the Halo?
Back to Top
Simon Lovesey View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 30 Nov 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 349 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon Lovesey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 11:00am
Latest start times now online from the organising club and to avoid any ambiguity no RYA logo :  

D-Zero,  Halo and RS Aero 9 -  13:24

Let battle commence 
www.sailracer.org
Online Sailing Results, GPS Tracking & Event Management
Back to Top
kneewrecker View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 09 Apr 14
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 10:47am
Originally posted by boatbasher

First high profile meeting of two new products competing for the same space ...

Send in your best jockey ... register the big rig at the last moment once you have seen the forecast and once you have seen the PYs set ...

Whip the opposition and crow about it for months to come ... job done...

beats turning up and racing scratch and having your arse handed to you on a plate despite out numbering your opposition by over 2:1... 

... all whilst using the PY system to justify some spurious marketing hype that you've got the fastest production singlehander:



Edited by kneewrecker - 19 Sep 14 at 10:54am
Back to Top
2547 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 11
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 10:40am
Originally posted by Thunder Road

Originally posted by 2547

Originally posted by Bas Edmonds

 
The numbers published by the RYA for each class are offered to the clubs to be able run mixed class racing - 

So what should clubs do with new classes which have no returns to support a figure?

The RYA should issue a temp. figure and adjust later as returns build, just like they have always done. that's why we pay our RYA membership.

Agreed ... so what are the RYA temp figures?
Back to Top
boatbasher View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 17 Aug 12
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 76 		Post Options Post Options   Quote boatbasher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 14 at 10:39am
First high profile meeting of two new products competing for the same space ...

Send in your best jockey ... register the big rig at the last moment once you have seen the forecast and once you have seen the PYs set ...

Whip the opposition and crow about it for months to come ... job done...
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 6263646566 159>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy