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Fair Play?

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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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    Posted: 02 Sep 14 at 10:12am
Originally posted by iGRF

A short board, apart from dragging its owner to the side of the water and beating him/her senseless is no different to a foiling moth don't they vary just a tad between speeds on and off the foils, it doesn't stop y'all accommodating them. Then given half the pilots are ex windsurfers anyway, what's the problem in giving kids like Genna a crack at the chocolates? In this case the Cats are always walking off with them.

Windsurfers are never going to adopt a yardstick system, this would just allow clubs should they desire to swell the numbers of their events (without creating extra waterside parking of trolley issues I might add)extra income potential, there are lots of kids that have passed through the Team fifteen system that have nowhere to go since the RYA dumped them. If your club is so full you don't need them, fair enough but from what I've seen an influx of single handers with no impact on the boat park wouldn't be a bad thing, seems like a no brainer to me.

The no brainer thing is that most clubs have had windsurf racing in the past- usually as a separate fleet.  The issues identified here, were already identified in the 80's...  MM is spot on.  For whatever reason there simply isn't demand from windsurfers to take up racing anymore- not within the infrastructure of a dinghy club anyway.  I don't see why sailing clubs should waste precious resources trying to attract ex Team 15 kids into their ranks... they'll be off to uni soon enough.  Nor bother trying to convert groove riders into racers.... they simply aren't interested, in the concept or the equipment.  Which is why NP dropped the RS:One programme in the UK, and why Starboard haven't bothered with the Phantom 295 here either.

Clubs are far better off trying to attract adults than kids, and frankly, why bother channelling that interest through a windsurf class- far better to swell the ranks of the Lasers for the newbies who will purchase boats or create a crew pool for double handers for those who don't want to make that commitment just yet.  If anyone windsurfing wants to take it a bit more competitively, then there's the UKWA master-blaster events, BSA slalom circuit and the raceboard events (which are very strong in London).  I don't see the need to 'cross the streams' personally... each sport seems to work better independently imho.



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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 14 at 10:17am
Originally posted by kneewrecker

except that a 420 only really gets stupidly bandit-like in a F6.... not exactly prevailing conditions of most handicap racing, and as such the law of averages takes good care of that relatively isolated situation.  
The planing threshold for race boards is a lot lower- around F4, F3 for light guys.

Exactly.   Among dinghies the effect is certainly there, but not to the extent that it makes the outcome totally predictable in advance.

As I was reminded at the recent Medway Marathon. The forecast was F.5/6, and I bet my Wayfarer chum that he'd stand no chance against the trap boats. But he won (and I had to endure a barracking while buying two pints (actually three - one for me).

What I should have bet was that he'd lose to any trap boat that got around cleanly. As it was, they all spent too much time exploding their foils (the 14), or full of water (the Alto - Grumph will love that), or plain overpowered and too-often capsized in the extreme gusty conditions. My mate won through survival (and beat lots of other Wayfarers), but it was still hardly a handicap 'race', where PY's had any valid meaning.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 14 at 10:45am
If your handicap were so perfect, I'd accept all the bullsh*t, but I know every bit of its idiosyncrasies, we also have issues, between Raceboard and say RSX which differ as much as Phantoms in the light inland and in a force 4 in waves against a Contender for example.

It's never going to be perfect, what's wrong at the moment is the wild shifting about to suit pondies, that we wouldn't want to see, once a board has a handicap that should be it unless there is a performance change, moving it around just because a new bunch of muppets on bogs worth sc have decided to submit returns or an organisation has decided to take over the world in the winter linking previously disparate events into one series of hot shots and pro's, no we wouldn't like that at all.
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GarethT View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote GarethT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 14 at 10:47am

I was having this conversation recently about what happens after the RYA youth/junior pathway.

 

For dinghy sailors, once they have had enough of travelling the country for their racing there is an option to stay at home and do club racing instead (invariably in a handicap fleet). It gives them an option to stay in the sport and keep racing whilst having a lesser burden on time, money and parents.

 

For windsurfers, there isn’t really that option. If you want to race you have to travel, so when they’re fed up of travelling they stop racing forever. If just a few clubs in each region could accommodate windsurfers in handicap racing, even if they separate them out for prizes, it might help keep a few more people active in the sport. I suppose if you see dinghy racing and windsurfer racing as separate sports you might not give a toss about it.

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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 14 at 10:57am
I see windsurfing as a sport that fundamentally requires travel- you go where the wind takes you and to hell with a fixed agenda set by the committee or the windguru effect spoiling your plans.  Hence why a travel plan to hit the south coast got changed last minute to Rutland on Sunday for me....  

I could take a different view if I was fortunate enough to live next to a beach that delivered consistently, but even then, judging from some experience of folks in that luxurious position, it does seem to make them, shall we say, 'narrow minded' about what windsurfing is and can offer.  

(FYI- that's NOT a dig at Graeme btw, but he'll know who I mean....)  
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 14 at 11:00am
I seem to recall that apart from the PY issue in mixed racing, there were also the chiselled holes in the sides of the dinghies! I thought a ramming from a Fireball was bad enough, but a board has much better penetrating power!

Question is, do people really want to race standing up, week in, week out in all weathers like we do dinghies? Blue Circle SC had a fair number of Lasers in the '80's, but they all migrated to boards for a few years...then back to Lasers. I wonder why?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 14 at 11:21am
Well I can see both views and agree both ways, Grumpf the windsurfer says f**k em all they're dinghy sailingt**ts, they have no idea, but Graeme Fuller the commodore of Hythe & Saltwood Sailing Club has to manage his membership requirements and it was that man that was disappointed for one of his members. H&SSC do regularly race boards and dinghies in concert and we would like to encourage participation after team fifteen for our kids. The commodore of IOSSC is equally bereft that we were upset and wishes to help next year, so those two sensible folk are talking, he has historical participation of Boards and is eager to encourage more.

It's a number assigned to a craft, what possible harm could it do? Just another option you can ignore if you wish whilst you concentrate on banjo playing lessons for the retarded, Wayfarers ffs why would you? Unless, hmm let me think, what's that smell? Not more banditry...

Edited by iGRF - 02 Sep 14 at 11:25am
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 14 at 12:00pm
Originally posted by iGRF

It's a number assigned to a craft, what possible harm could it do? 

Is it fair play that a 'craft' should win just because of the wind strength and almost without regard to skill level?

Nobody pretends that the PY system is entirely fair, but it does us for weekly racing among not too dissimilar 'craft'.  For that reason we split our fast trap boats off from our slower hikers into Fast and Medium handicap fleets.

We do have all-comers races, but if it's a F.3-4 I'd have to sail very badly in the V3k to be beaten by my Wayfarer mate. Equally, he'd have to sail terribly to be beaten by me in a F2-3.  We can put up with that for the odd race for novelty's sake, and some races are F2-4, then it's anybody's depending upon if and when they get the gusts.

But the difference between boards (and foilers) and dinghies is just too great.  If it's less than planing/foiling, the boards and foilers might just as well stay ashore.  Vice versa in planing foiling conditions.

Does IOSSC really want some potential dinghy competitors to look at Wind Guru (I prefer XC Weather actually) and think "no, it's a board day, we won't get a look in", or boardies to say 'we'll get slaughtered unless we plane, we'll stay on the beach'?  I know we should sail round the island for the joy of it, but...

Give everyone their own trophies and let them race separately.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 14 at 12:05pm
Don't tell me that doesn't happen already, I bet there were any number of boats that looked at the forecast and didn't show. You can't differentiate, every argument you make can be countered by similar differences between boats. I didn't notice any International canoes this year and they usually win. In fact i thought the medal for bravery should have gone to the dude in the RS300, talk about mission impossible has it got a centreboard even? I didn't see a single B14, or Musto Skiff or RS800 and they've all been present in the past.

And you cracking on about skill, nobody is going to enter a 40+ mile race like that unless they have the minerals, they might not be a river dwelling tide rat, but they will have had what it takes to do that so would a racing windsurfer especially on a day like saturday.

Edited by iGRF - 02 Sep 14 at 12:10pm
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 14 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by iGRF

I didn't notice any International canoes this year

Think they're in San Francisco.
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