Fair Play?

except that a 420 only really gets stupidly bandit-like in a F6.... not exactly prevailing conditions of most handicap racing, and as such the law of averages takes good care of that relatively isolated situation.  

Originally posted by Medway Maniac Originally posted by Rupert So let them race scratch, for an overall result, and use the times to start to get an idea of what the handicap should be next time. ...when conditions will be sub-planing and the PY far too harsh (or vice versa had it been light this time). It is simply pointless to pretend to measure how well somebody has sailed a board by comparing their time with a dinghy's time - unless maybe you have two PY's, one for planing conditions, the other for displacement. Thus Chris' quoted PY's will almost always be wrong on any given day, as presumably they must be averages of planing and displacement. A short board might plane around at sub-90 (Oz system) speeds in a F.6 compared to a 505, but when it can't plane it would need... any guesses? Always assuming it could sail at all. So what PY do you give it? 105? Then any numpty who could simply keep it sailing will beat the 505 on a windy day, whereas the 505 will win in F.1-3. always. Is that racing? Is it worth a prize? Even then, we all know that in a race like Sheppey, there will be a distribution of both strengths of wind around the course on any given day, so how will you decide what weighting to give each of the two PY's? Pointless exercise. Keep 'em separate and let them race in separate fleets. Same for foilers.

You could make the same argument for a 420.

Handicap racing is just a bit of fun and will never guarantee that the winner is the one who sailed the best. Why not just extend the fun to more people, accepting that there will be compromises and limitations?

Originally posted by Rupert Given the trouble we have with boats that race each other regularly, I can't see how it will be at all accurate. And given that thread about how windsurfers have this much better system of racing which makes dinghy racing seem really crap, why join in anyway?

Originally posted by Rupert So let them race scratch, for an overall result, and use the times to start to get an idea of what the handicap should be next time.

...when conditions will be sub-planing and the PY far too harsh (or vice versa had it been light this time).

It is simply pointless to pretend to measure how well somebody has sailed a board by comparing their time with a dinghy's time - unless maybe you have two PY's, one for planing conditions, the other for displacement.

Thus Chris' quoted PY's will almost always be wrong on any given day, as presumably they must be averages of planing and displacement. A short board might plane around at sub-90 (Oz system) speeds in a F.6 compared to a 505, but when it can't plane it would need... any guesses? Always assuming it could sail at all. So what PY do you give it? 105? Then any numpty who could simply keep it sailing will beat the 505 on a windy day, whereas the 505 will win in F.1-3. always. Is that racing? Is it worth a prize?

Even then, we all know that in a race like Sheppey, there will be a distribution of both strengths of wind around the course on any given day, so how will you decide what weighting to give each of the two PY's?

Pointless exercise. Keep 'em separate and let them race in separate fleets. Same for foilers.

Originally posted by Chris 249 700 is ridiculous. Down here in Oz we have the following board yardsticks; International Raceboard(Flat bottom planing boards) 7.5 max sail = yardstick 97 (lightweight sailors) 99 (heavyweight sailors) Division II Round bottom, displacement boards open <span style="line-height: 1.4;">class </span><span style="line-height: 1.4;">7.3 max sail 102 (LW) 104 (HW)</span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;"></span> Division II Funboards pre 1987 7.3 max 107 (LW) 110 (HW). Note - there is no such thing as a "Division II Funboard"; I think it means Division 1. Open Class 93 (HW and LW) Windsurfer one design 6.5 max 112 (LW) 116 (HW) Junior under 16 any board 6.5 max 115 Under 13 years any board 5.5 max 127 Weight is the sailor's dry weight fully equipped including harness and safety gear. Heavy weight is greater than <span style="line-height: 1.4;">81 cgs. In wind strengths consistently over Force 4 (15 knots) the yardstick for heavyweight sailors shall be the s</span><span style="line-height: 1.4;">ame as the yardstick for lightweight sailors.</span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;"></span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;">For interclub racing among boards, we have put the RSX at around 100 and the Techno at 116, I think. We also tend to ignore the sailor weight issue for simplicity, and average the yardsticks for the two weight classes. The Div II board is obviously rated too slowly. FWIW after our testing I'd put a Kona One on the same handicap as the Windsurfer One Design. I think the FW board is rated near the Moth and 49er but in non-planing winds it could be rated slower than the Opti.</span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;"></span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;">For comparison, the old-rules IC is 93.5 (ouch!), the Musto 94, B14 94.4, 29er 96.5, 505 97.5, Laser 113 and Radial 116. </span><span style="line-height: 1.4;">In general the numbers seem to provide a pretty reasonable and accurate comparison of overall performance between the boards and the boats. </span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;">The performance of the boards does vary enormously depending on wind strength and angle, and whether it's a course where you can foot off into a knock or have to sail high into lifts due to geographic features. The real issue, though, is pumping - when you have a class like the Raceboards that allows unrestricted pumping the boards can beat just about anything in the right conditions; how do you rate a class that can move at several knots in a dead calm?</span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;"></span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;">About the "they shouldn't have let her enter with that handicap" point - the issue is that experience proves that NOT letting someone race because they don't have a reliable handicap causes just as many complaints as letting them race and giving them a dodgy handicap. </span>

Thanks for posting all that Chris, we've been chatting between us since he sounds like a really nice guy and I think I'll write to a few more club commodores that I know race boards and we'll see if we can get a trial going what would help if anyone knows the formula to convert the old three figure system to the current one we use. I remember racing the old Windsurfer with it's wooden boom off 120 back in the day when they first tried a round robin meet to get handicaps going for them, from memory the 505 was 94 or thereabouts back then. (1979)

Edited by iGRF - 02 Sep 14 at 9:03am