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    Posted: 26 Aug 14 at 6:00pm
Unfortunately some sailors have been known to confuse 'sportsmanship' with 'gamesmanship'

For once Wikepedia provides an amusing take on this. Referring to the seminal The Theory and Practice of Gamesmanship (or the Art of Winning Games without Actually Cheating,by Stephen Potter:

Potter's double-edged ironies did not spare the gamesman himself (he slyly named one prominent protagonist 'Bzo, U., holder (1947) Yugo-Slav Gamesmanship Championship', for example). Potter acknowledged repeatedly that 'the way of the gamesman is hard, his training strict, his progress slow, his disappointments many', and recognised that as a result 'the assiduous student of gamesmanship has little time for the minutiae of the game itself - little opportunity for learning how to play the shots, for instance'. Yet one of his "correspondents" owlishly admits, 'there is no doubt that a knowledge of the game itself sometimes helps the gamesman'.

Hence 'perhaps the most difficult type for the gamesman to play is the man who indulges in pure play. He gets down to it, he gets on with it, he plays each shot according to its merits, and his own powers, without a trace of exhibitionism, and no by-play whatever' The book gloomily concludes, 'we amateurs have to fight against the growing menace of young people who insist on playing their various games for the fun of the thing...indulging rather too freely, if the truth were known, in pure play'
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 14 at 8:11pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by rb_stretch

I can think of a recent example where in a handicap race, a Fireball in an earlier start hung around to a sail a Phantom into penalties. The faster Fireball was strictly playing by the rules, but the rules had not been worded to account for such an eventuality. The spirit of rules is important in helping to resolve those situations where people push the boundaries.

Firstly, I presume that both boats were competing in some sort of cross-divisional pointscore, otherwise FB, having no sporting reason to interfere with P would clearly break rule 2, and possibly rule 69 (Case 78, Circumstance ( e )).

I can't see the slightest difficulty with this.
  • FB plainly interfered with P.
  • Boats being in different divisions with different starts, I have no difficulty concluding they were sailing on different legs.
  • I find it inconceivable that at some point FB, a significantly faster boat, in the process of maintaining control of P, did not sail other than her proper course.
FB [at some time] not sailing her proper course interfered with P a boat sailing on another leg.  FB broke rule 24.2.

Having broken a rule to interfere with another boat FB broke rule 2 and possibly rule 69 (Case 78 Answer 3).

The race in question was the high profile Draycote Dash in 2012 , which is a big winter series here in the UK. This article describes the incident:

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/161828/SailJuice-Global-Warm-Up-2012

The rules as you describe we're not applied and it was only after a lot of internet ranting that the Fireball in question decided to apologise. The result still stood though, because time ran out for the protest and I think the recipients of the Fireball sailors actions were too angry/despondent to follow up. 

Anyway just an illustration of top sailors following rules by the letter, rather than the spirit.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 14 at 8:17pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by rb_stretch

First of all I've always found your responses extremely helpful on rules and I certainly learn something whenever you comment.
Thank you


Originally posted by rb_stretch

I firmly believe that you will never find the use of language alone can provide an explanation that leaves no room for interpretation.

But as the law or rules develop and mature, with the publication of authoritative interpretations (Cases) the need for ad-hoc interpretation diminishes

Originally posted by rb_stretch

 I found the cases are almost more important that the rules themselves and without the cases I would be lost as to which specific interpretation (or combination of) the rules needs to be made.

I think that may be, in part, because the Cases provide concrete examples, while the rules themselves are abstract.

Originally posted by rb_stretch

Although you dismiss the spirit of rules as irrelevant, I do think think they play an important role

I never used the word irrelevant.

I absolutely agree that you need a foundation of fairness and sportsmanship in the conduct of competition.

I believe that that is to be found in rule 2.

2 FAIR SAILING
A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles have been violated. A disqualification under this rule shall not be excluded from the boat’s series score.

Maybe we are disagreeing about a difference that is not very material.
  • the 'spirit of the rules' appeals to something that is supposed to reside within the rules;
  • the 'principles of sportsmanship and fair play' referred to in rule 2 are recognisable outside the rules.
But doesn't rule 2 give a sufficient basis of fairness and sportsmanship?

Originally posted by rb_stretch

... I will probably know correctly 90% of the rules, simply because I have built an approximate model in my own mind to capture the spirit of the rules. I feel confident in saying that I do not remember the actual rules themselves.
I don't believe we will have a perfect set of rules, but I definitely think there is merit in considering simplification when so few of us can actually use the rules as worded.

If you probably apply the rules correctly 90% of the time, nobody can say that you cannot use the rules as worded.

Whether you can recall rule numbers and the precise wording of rules doesn't matter:  thats what rule books and innumerable electronic versions are published for.


Although I'm open to the distinction you make, the challenge of rule 2 is that it can conflict with the actual rules. I suspect this was the issue in the Fireball case. They followed the rules to the letter, which kind of made it difficult to override with the subjective Rule 2. Maybe Rule 2 needs to have a higher priority, as a deterrent to those who seek to exploit the way rules are worded? ie. if you exploit a rule, then you first need to demonstrate that it was done in fairness and good sportsmanship?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 14 at 9:03pm
Without returning to old arguments what the Fireball did was explicitly within the letter and the spirit of the laws - in that they are specifically drafted to allow such conduct which is also supported by Case Law.  The circumstances to make it 'worthwhile' has simply never occurred before.  For many the issue was that the Fireball had set the 'worthwhile' threshold too low for a Winter PY Series.  But it's a pointless example.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 14 at 9:20pm
Originally posted by Brass

On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if the below-average competitor didn't read the rules.

Am I a below-average citizen for not having read The Big Book of UK Laws? I do know the 10 Commandments though...

But I do take your point. I should try to educate myself.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 14 at 10:30pm
The Fireball could have retired if they felt that they had not complied with recognised principles of sportsmanship and fair play. The crew would have won the respect of all their fellow competitors, which, as the remark attributed to Elvestrom points out,  is more important than winning the race.

There is no time limit for a boat to retire!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 14 at 6:56am
Originally posted by sargesail

Without returning to old arguments what the Fireball did was explicitly within the letter and the spirit of the laws - in that they are specifically drafted to allow such conduct which is also supported by Case Law.  The circumstances to make it 'worthwhile' has simply never occurred before.  For many the issue was that the Fireball had set the 'worthwhile' threshold too low for a Winter PY Series.  But it's a pointless example.

The only defence I heard was that the Fireball followed rules to the letter. What that really meant was that it following all the rules to the letter except rule 2 (or maybe some others that Brass might better highlight). 

Somehow it seems that precise rules are more important than more subjective rules and this is one of the reasons why we can't have more simple rules. If Rule 2 was more important than others we could ask the question, did the Fireball conduct itself in a fair and sportsmanlike way in interpreting the other rules? I think the answer would be no and given their apology it seems like they would also agree with that statement.

Anyway, the reason I bring this up is that if we are to create some simplified rules we need some qualitative ones that cover those circumstances outside of the mainstream of circumstances that the more precise rules can't cover. Specifically they need to cover the attempts of exploitation of rules. Cases would then test that subjectivity, so that the boundaries would establish themselves fairly quickly.

Unfortunately I personally don't have the time to explore how feasible that could actually be, but I'm definitely interested based on my experience in other fields. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 14 at 7:01am
Originally posted by Peaky

Originally posted by Brass

On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if the below-average competitor didn't read the rules.

Am I a below-average citizen for not having read The Big Book of UK Laws? I do know the 10 Commandments though...

But I do take your point. I should try to educate myself.

UK Law just illustrates how absurd it can get. I can't remember the exact figure, but since Tony Blair(a lawyer) came in, the number of UK laws has gone through huge exponential growth. Even the lawyers can't keep up. How are people supposed to stay within the law if no-one can usefully read, let alone understand it all?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 14 at 8:30am
Originally posted by rb_stretch

How are people supposed to stay within the law if no-one can usefully read, let alone understand it all?

Fortunately most of the new laws aren't new laws at all just old ones dressed up a bit with extra trimmings. I'm at risk of getting political here, but you know, once you have a law against assault, that's all you need if you enforce it. You don't need it to be [large list of alternatives]-aggravated-assault as well unless you are a politician in need of a soundbite or a journo needing some copy.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 14 at 11:42am
Originally posted by rb_stretch

Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by rb_stretch

I can think of a recent example where in a handicap race, a Fireball in an earlier start hung around to a sail a Phantom into penalties. The faster Fireball was strictly playing by the rules, but the rules had not been worded to account for such an eventuality. The spirit of rules is important in helping to resolve those situations where people push the boundaries.

Firstly, I presume that both boats were competing in some sort of cross-divisional pointscore, otherwise FB, having no sporting reason to interfere with P would clearly break rule 2, and possibly rule 69 (Case 78, Circumstance ( e )).

I can't see the slightest difficulty with this.
  • FB plainly interfered with P.
  • Boats being in different divisions with different starts, I have no difficulty concluding they were sailing on different legs.
  • I find it inconceivable that at some point FB, a significantly faster boat, in the process of maintaining control of P, did not sail other than her proper course.
FB [at some time] not sailing her proper course interfered with P a boat sailing on another leg.  FB broke rule 24.2.

Having broken a rule to interfere with another boat FB broke rule 2 and possibly rule 69 (Case 78 Answer 3).

The race in question was the high profile Draycote Dash in 2012 , which is a big winter series here in the UK. This article describes the incident:


The rules as you describe we're not applied and it was only after a lot of internet ranting that the Fireball in question decided to apologise. The result still stood though, because time ran out for the protest and I think the recipients of the Fireball sailors actions were too angry/despondent to follow up. 

Anyway just an illustration of top sailors following rules by the letter, rather than the spirit

OK, I've read the account of the incident.

I don't want rake over this if it's done and dusted, but your comments raise a few challenges.

Apparently the reason why 'the rules as describe[d]' were not 'applied' was that the Phantom did not protest.  Regardless of whether they failed to deliver a written protest in time ('time ran out') or whatever other reason, the Phantom did not play his part in the enforcement of the rules by protesting.

The account (and you) implies that they were so gob-smacked that they didn't think to protest.  These are National level competitors:  gob-smacked doesn't cut it. 

Case closed.  Sympathy switch to Off.

Originally posted by rb_stretch

 
the challenge of rule 2 is that it can conflict with the actual rules.

I'd really like you to give an example of this, citing the actual text of the rule and explaining how you think there is 'conflict'.


Originally posted by rb_stretch

  I suspect this was the issue in the Fireball case. They followed the rules to the letter, which kind of made it difficult to override with the subjective Rule 2.

We have only the say-so of the competitors in the Fireball that they followed the rules to the letter.

Because there was no protest hearing that decided 'no rules were broken' we have no reason to agree with the competitors in the Fireball.

As I described previously, its highly likely that they broke rule 24.2, and if there had been a protest for rule 2 bare, then I think it would have been quite possible to distinguish this incident from Case 78.

Originally posted by rb_stretch

 
Maybe Rule 2 needs to have a higher priority, as a deterrent to those who seek to exploit the way rules are worded? ie. if you exploit a rule, then you first need to demonstrate that it was done in fairness and good sportsmanship?

How would this have helped in this case?

Because there was no protest, there was no exploration of whether rule 2 would have been effective or not.

All rules are created equal.  we should probably keep them that way.

Originally posted by sargesail

Without returning to old arguments what the Fireball did was explicitly within the letter and the spirit of the laws 

I disagree, for the reasons I put above.

There certainly is no rule explicitly permitting the actions of the Fireball.

Originally posted by sargesail

 - in that they are specifically drafted to allow such conduct which is also supported by Case Law. 
  

I am surprised that you claim knowledge of the intention of the rules drafters.  I don't think you really have that knowledge.

I don't think you can point to any rule that 'specifically allows' the actions of the Fireball.

Looking at the long and troubled history of Case 78, I would say that 'sailing a boat down the fleet' was never contemplated by the drafters of the rules, and it's taken a long period of development of case law to arrive at the present Case 78 position.


Edited by Brass - 27 Aug 14 at 11:43am
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