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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 Aug 14 at 8:39am
If you want to test out a new set of rules then a useful paper exercise would be to go through all the cases in the RYA and ISAF casebook and see how well they work. Personally I think its a futile exercise.

It is, however, worth producing a simplified set of guidelines for new sailors which cover most situations if you don't push it. I like these, from US judge Don Becker.

•1. Avoid collisions.
•2. Port keeps clear of starboard.
•3. Windward keeps clear of leeward
•4. The boat astern keeps clear of the boat ahead.
•5. A boat tacking keeps clear of one that is not.
•6. If you gain right of way or change course, give the other boat time to keep clear.
•7. The inside boat(s) at three boat lengths from the mark is entitled to room to round the mark.
•8. A boat that is backing up or not racing keeps clear.
•9. If you have violated a rule, take a penalty

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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 14 at 9:04am
Originally posted by JimC

If you want to test out a new set of rules then a useful paper exercise would be to go through all the cases in the RYA and ISAF casebook and see how well they work. Personally I think its a futile exercise.

It is, however, worth producing a simplified set of guidelines for new sailors which cover most situations if you don't push it. I like these, from US judge Don Becker.

•1. Avoid collisions.
•2. Port keeps clear of starboard.
•3. Windward keeps clear of leeward
•4. The boat astern keeps clear of the boat ahead.
•5. A boat tacking keeps clear of one that is not.
•6. If you gain right of way or change course, give the other boat time to keep clear.
•7. The inside boat(s) at three boat lengths from the mark is entitled to room to round the mark.
•8. A boat that is backing up or not racing keeps clear.
•9. If you have violated a rule, take a penalty


well there we go.... I think that is a very good prιcis of the RRS.  

Certainly it seems more than sufficient for club level racing.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 14 at 9:20am
Originally posted by Bootscooter

Luffing rights...
Mate, why do you and others keep trying to resuscitate a concept and a term that was very carefully eliminated from the rules in 1995?

"Luffing" or "Luff" do not appear anywhere in the rules (with a couple of oversights in the bowels of the Match Racing rules).

There is no such thing as "Luffing rights".

A leeward boat has right of way over a windward boat under rule 11, subject to the limitations of rule 16, giving room to keep clear, and when applicable, rule 17 proper course.
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 14 at 9:33am
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by Bootscooter

Luffing rights...
Mate, why do you and others keep trying to resuscitate a concept and a term that was very carefully eliminated from the rules in 1995?

"Luffing" or "Luff" do not appear anywhere in the rules (with a couple of oversights in the bowels of the Match Racing rules).

There is no such thing as "Luffing rights".

A leeward boat has right of way over a windward boat under rule 11, subject to the limitations of rule 16, giving room to keep clear, and when applicable, rule 17 proper course.

just goes to show the level of confusion over the rules, Boots is far from alone in having a clear and present understanding of the term 'luffing rights', irrespective of the nomenclature of the ISAF manual.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 14 at 9:51am
Originally posted by kneewrecker

@Brass - yes I agree it's complex, but no I don't agree we shouldn't simplify, hence the purpose of this (pointless) exercise

If you go on with this project, you need to be very clear what you are trying to do.

Right now, we have a pretty good set of rules for a modern, athletic competitive game (or suite of games:  Fleet Racing, Board Racing, Match Racing, Team Racing, Radio Racing, Kiteboard Racing), that are tried and true and supported by a necessary and relevant set of interpretations.

These rules are developed to the point where they can be used defensively, as a shield, and aggressively  as a sword, and are so used by serious experienced competitors.

The question is, do you wish to develop:
  1. a new set of rules to replace the present rules for general use,
  2. a set of 'beginners' rules that, smoothly or jerkily can lead on to the use of the 'proper' rules later on?
The problem with developing a wholly new set of rules that can also be used aggressively or for 'rules chess', is that this is a massively complex interactional undertaking, which, as JimC has said would necessarily involve a very careful examination of existing Cases and Appeals, and plain language drafting skills, I regret to say, a good deal better than those displayed in your first draft.

As I indicated, my preferred approach is to develop a minimalist subset of simplified rules which will allow a beginner to keep out of trouble on a race course with other racers using the existing 'full strength' rules, while incrementally developing rules knowledge and skills so as to eventually make competitive use of the full set of rules.

As for 'allowing the race committee to set the tone of the event', IMHO, that would be setting the game back 50 years, back into the days of gentlemanly bumbling amateurishness, and undue concerns for polite behaviour, at the expense of clear simple rules.

We have now developed a set of rules that rely, with the exception of rules 2 and 69, on what boat's observably do, not what they think, or what others think of them.

And I, for one would like to keep it that way.
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 14 at 10:00am
Originally posted by Brass


Right now, we have a pretty good set of rules


True, but what you lack are people sailing & racing in boats who have the first idea what they are, or more importantly, even want to know what they are because they are so stupidly complicated.
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 14 at 10:12am
a compelling post.... I guess around here at least, 'gentlemanly bumbling amateurishness' is all par for the course, so a rule set that reflects that would mean that at least folks taking part aren't making such glaring errors... I know I had someone call 'mast abeam' on me in the last 3 years for starters, which makes poor Boots's 'Luffing Rights' a fairly mild infraction.  Is it true that 'time and opportunity' is another cringe worthy statement us muppets roll-out on occasion?  

I also acknowledge it was nothing more than a first draft on my OP, and frankly JimC's post with Don Becker's attempt shows a far more considered and simplified approach to what I (and Rupert I guess) set out to achieve in answering this challenge.  Having sight of that now renders any fresh attempt futile, so thanks to Jim for posting it so early on in this thread.  All I would add in would be a 'spirit of the rules catch all' Rule 10, then I think it's a sufficient rule set for almost every club I've been a member of.  

As for intentions, I guess 'the full blown RRS' is exactly what's needed for Championships and Regattas, so a stepping-stone approach is probably the best way to view it.  Obviously 'serious clubs' or those with 'serious fleets' within them, would be welcome to adopt the full RRS- it would ultimately be a membership decision and part of the club offering.  

I accept the RRS are NOT deliberately confusing, they are just the product of years of experience and refinement being tested at Championship level; often as result of a legalise attitude to their value in the sport - 'all part of the game' mantra etc so often the defence of a rules nerd who clearly pushed moral and sporting boundaries.  (Although that in itself is hardly an exclusively 'sailing' issue.)  But that does not mean the current RRS are necessarily the best fit for a club race on a thursday evening amongst friends and acquaintances.... I attended a Rules Clinic last year, most of us got quite a bit wrong.  Which to my mind suggests that at club level, they are simply not fit for purpose. 

I guess accepting the differences between the cultures is the first step, then respecting it is another.  

Words like 'dumbing down' never sit right with me, whereas 'simplifying' and 'welcoming' seem a wholly more positive message- especially for a sport which is in decline and is grossly in need of adult participation if it wishes to have a future.   
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Punky View Drop Down
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Posts: 90 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Punky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 14 at 10:13am
I like those 9 points.  I know this is seen as disgusting in some quarters, but I have been racing 30 years and never read the rule book (did try once about 20 years ago, but didn't understand and now it's all superseded). 
Am I alone in finding it impossible to follow when rules discussions on here go on about Boat A being to windward of boat B on a port rounding and Boat C gaing an overlap etc etc...? I just can't visualise what is going on.  So nine simple bullets is good for me!
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Bootscooter View Drop Down
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Posts: 1094 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bootscooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 14 at 10:52am
I am fully aware of the rules thank you, and used the term purely to indicate that there was no reference in the simplified rules stated, to prevent a leeward boat coming from clear behind sailing above its proper course in order to push up a windward boat (simplified language used).
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 14 at 10:58am
Under the simple rules I defined that would be acceptable Boots.  Deliberately so... personally I think it would make some interesting game play!  Evil Smile

However under Rule 4 of Don Becker's list, it would not.  

As I have already state, Becker's list is a lot more refined, and results in a much more rounded simplification, thus far more suited to the objective than my first draft.  

(If it makes for a better discussion, I'm happy to delete/edit my OP, and CnP Jim's as a quote...)




Edited by kneewrecker - 21 Aug 14 at 11:03am
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