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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 14 Aug 14 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by Brass

Uh huhh?

You know, what would have happened say if the Boss had been selected rather than the 49er. Would it have been like the 505 and the Fireball - class very successful anyway - after all the 49er was already showing distinct signs that it was going to sell pre trials - or would it have been one of those classes that fades away never to be seen again? There's no way of knowing. That's what I mean by you never find out what would have happened.
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Posts: 665 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon1277 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 14 at 3:32pm
Rupert
Is the 49er or Nacra 17 any cheaper and the new boats last a decent amount of time?
We used to get the top guys come and sail anyway, I can remember Nigel Buckley winning the Nationals when he was 470 world champ and Ian Walker coming to a Nationals at Mounts Bay.
A few 505 guys whent into the FD as well, John Loveday, to name but one.


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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 14 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by jaydub

Certainly hasn't harmed the Fireballs not being selected as an Olympic class.

Originally posted by JimC

Another interesting question would be whether the enthusiasm with which classes pursue Olympic status is justified. Trouble is, of course, you never get to find out what would have happened...

Uh huhh?

You know, what would have happened say if the Boss had been selected rather than the 49er. Would it have been like the 505 and the Fireball - class very successful anyway - after all the 49er was already showing distinct signs that it was going to sell pre trials - or would it have been one of those classes that fades away never to be seen again? There's no way of knowing. That's what I mean by you never find out what would have happened.

I understand the point you were making.  I was trying to point out that if you can't know what would happen if an unsuccessful aspiring class had made it, you can't very well say 'it hasn't done any harm'.

I guess that the Olympic Curse proposition is that, for a class that deserves to be successful and popular, does being Olympically anointed harm or impede the class.

I suppose there is a converse about a class that does not deserve to be successful, being promoted well beyond what it deserves by being an Olympic Class.

Or, possibly classes that once were thoroughly popular and deserving being sustained long past their use-by date.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 14 at 4:10pm
I like questions with no answers - we can delve back into history, form opinions, set the world of sailing to rights, all from our keyboards.

Gordon, wasn't dissing the 505 or its cost - I'm sure the boats you mention cost just as much, and the dinghy world needs boats that normal (ie not sponsored) people are willing to actually spend money on. At National level, the Merlin Rocket is another to fill the niche. The fact that Olympians pop into the class for some fun shows that the skill levels are very high within the fleet (after all, many of the sailors are well known names in sailing round the world), but that is very different from the boat being on the world tour that the Olympic classes do, week in, week out.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 14 at 6:42pm
Jim you could look to the Olympic Singlehanded Skiff Project as a bit of an indicator, it might have had its heyday now (thanks to Mothing) but the MPS has served a good round of high performance singlehanded sailing for a good while now, and as prices drop, it certainly could have a solid 'second life' in the 2-4k price bracket.

Edited by kneewrecker - 14 Aug 14 at 6:44pm
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 14 at 7:02am
WARNING - LONG ANSWER   Embarrassed

"The Olympic curse" refers to the belief that when a class is selected for the Games, the intensification of competition means that amateurs are no longer competitive, resulting in the death (or stunting) of local fleets. It may not be as significant in Europe as it is in places like North America or Australasia, and on the other hand, being an Olympic class will also keep small fleets going at national level.

People such as Olympians, administrators and journos have been talking about the curse for a few decades. For example, the guy who finished third in the Laser worlds shortly before it was made Olympic dropped out soon after, because the competition increased to the stage where winning went from a part-time job to a full-time one. 

Is it a myth? Not (IMHO) if we look at major sailing countries outside of the Continent (where the Olympic classes receive a lot of support).  It's hard to draw any lessons from Stars, Finns, Tempests and Europes because none of those former Olympic classes are very similar to non-Olympic classes. But some better- matched classes, where one went Olympic and one didn't, show the trend;

Fireball v 470 - the 'Ball appears to have stronger local fleets in most major sailing countries outside of the Continent.* There's something like 170 470s on the German ranking list but as I understand it, each sailing club there is pressured to support at least one Olympic class.
 
Etchells v Soling (when the Soling was Olympic) - the Etchells (and similar classes such as the Dyas, which was another unsuccessful competitor at the trials that saw the Soling chosen) appear to outnumber the Soling in most major sailing countries.

FD v 505 - the 505 appears to outnumber the FD in most major sailing countries. Even when doublehanded performance dinghies were at their peak and the FD was the only 2-man dinghy in the Games, the FD was outnumbered about 6 to 1 by the 505.

I think the 49er was chosen from a fleet that included the 14, FD, B14 and FD. The 49er is less popular in the UK than the 505, Int 14 and B14 and the newer 800. In Oz it's less popular than the 16,18,14,12,505 and B14. It certainly doesn't seem that the publicity, promotion and guaranteed fleet that Olympic selection guarantees has done the 49er too much good, in terms of generating the strong local fleets such a good boat deserves.

Yep, with retrpspect some people may say that the non-Olympic classes are simply better boats, but that's very subjective. 

Re - "Boats chosen for the Olympics are usually established classes and three events down the line they are twelve years older and getting tired.There is so much competition for Laser in the real world these days but the Olympics keep it in the public eye."

1- the Optimist, Solo, Cadet etc are all older than any of the Olympic classes yet they remain highly popular. Similarly, in the USA the Thistle and Flying Scot are older than any of the Olympic classes yet they remain highly popular. There are similar classes in other countries, so it can't be the age of the classes.

2- In most of the "real world" there are few if any new similar classes that offer close competition to the Laser "these days" (Supernovas, Phantoms etc are pretty much restricted to the UK) so it can't be that.

3- Re "did the Fireballs seriously come out against the 470?"

Yes. The Fireball v 470 were the two main classes considered at the IYRU's Class Policy Committee in May 1972 for the new Olympic spot which was to go to a 2-man boat that was smaller and cheaper than the FD. There were no actual trials because the IYRU had been burned by the ones they had run earlier.

4 - Re the Contender and the Olympics; the info I have (maybe 50 pages of photocopies and articles of the time, plus personal interviews with some of those involved) indicates that it WAS widely believed that the winner of the trials that chose the Contender would replace the Finn. 

By the way, the original specifications for the trials did not rule out the trapeze; it was generally considered too difficult for a singlehander. The "specifications" were deliberately left extremely vague early on, which was why the first trials included boats are varied as the Canoe, Trapez, Unit, OK and Moth.

5- Yes, the B14 competed in the same trials as the 49er and finished about 4th on the list of suitable classes, but was seen to be more fitted to the (then non existent) "women's skiff" category.

6- Yep, it's a complicated issue and there's no simple answer but IMHO, selection as an Olympic class is (all else being equal) going to seriously reduce a class' chance of getting serious numbers at local level. The rise of Masters sailing in Finns and Lasers is showing that there are ways around the problem, but the numbers of keen sailors in the "open" age bracket has dropped in those classes AFAIK.


Edited by Chris 249 - 15 Aug 14 at 7:05am
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iiitick View Drop Down
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Posts: 478 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iiitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 14 at 7:28am
That is a very interesting appraisal of the situation World wide Chris but most of us resemble spotty teenagers locked in our late night bedrooms seeing the Universe through a screen. You evidently have more information at your fingertips. Please forgive us for our sometimes inaccurate adolescent comment.

I have to leave you for 20 minutes now, I have to 'abuse' myself over that Merlin Rocket video. 
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Dougaldog View Drop Down
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Posts: 356 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 14 at 9:39am
Chris 249, (and Jim C + others)

I've been busy researching and collecting data on the IYRU Trials for the 'new' single hander for a long time now. Next year Y&Y will be carrying a feature/s on the story behind the story - there was as much going on in the way of on shore politics as there was sailing afloat.

But - for that first set of Trials, held at Weymouth, the use of the trapeze was indeed banned, though other forms of 'aids to sitting out' were allowed. Some of these were interesting, others simply scary (including one that involved an outrigger pole that you hung underneath from.... that didn't last for long!). Many people think of these Trials in terms of Trapez v Contender but the truth is that the two boats never met. Elvstrom turned up at the first set of trials with the Trapez and no one cared to tell him to go away, so he sailed but.... politics again.
Meanwhile, in the southern hemisphere, Bob Miller was equally well outside of the rules, with his first boat (a hard chined brute of a boat called 'Millers Missile' sporting a full battened mainsail - which was also banned by the IYRU Trials criteria.

There was a huge amount of innovation going on about then - everything from double luff sails, rotating masts, wishbone rigs.....

But coming right back onto topic; Could the Contender have been not just an Olympic dinghy, but a good one? I think the answer has to be yes, for it ticked all the boxes that needed ticking BACK THEN. Would it still be the Olympic boat now? No - doubt that very much. Has being 'passed over' for the Olympics harmed the Contender? It is really impossible to answer that, all one can say is that the class has prospered and continues to do so, occupying the niche that seems to be ideal for the boat.

In the end, this all boils down to your views on how good - or otherwise, sailing in the Olympics has been for the wider sport. There is a well supported argument that in the search for nationalistic glory, attention has been drawn away from the grassroots of the sport, with the consequences that we seem to be seeing. But that is a topic for another day and forum string!

D

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Posts: 3958 		Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 14 at 10:01am
from what i recall the Europe was an active class in this country prior to Olympic selection, but not as popular as it was overseas.  I think they would have 30 - 40 at a Nationals.  Olympic selection brought in lots of females with structured coaching and a very dedicated approach as required for Olympic participation.  So the chaps started to get beaten and moved on elsewhere.  The class was then dropped from the Olympics and it foundered - over here.  I think at Hunts we have more Europes than many clubs, but the problem is that without a uK builder, and imported boats being expensive, the class is not prospering as boats get older and decent ones hard to come by.

Go overseas and the Europe still enjoys massive popularity as the boat of choice for the lightweight sailor, and rightly so.
the same, but different...

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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 14 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by Dougaldog

Chris 249, (and Jim C + others)

I've been busy researching and collecting data on the IYRU Trials for the 'new' single hander for a long time now. Next year Y&Y will be carrying a feature/s on the story behind the story - there was as much going on in the way of on shore politics as there was sailing afloat.

But - for that first set of Trials, held at Weymouth, the use of the trapeze was indeed banned, though other forms of 'aids to sitting out' were allowed. 


I would love to get more info about the ban on the trap and full battens, Dougal.  I have not spoken to anyone who was at the first trials so I'm going off things like David Thomas' description of the initial Unit design and several report of the first trials, which referred to Elvstrom's use of the trapeze but specifically stated that there were no restrictions on design features such as hiking devices. I can give you the references but I assume you have them.

I have seen the home movie of the hard-chine Contender proto's first sail (by chance it was at the same time and place as an early sail of the Australis A Class) and spoken to both its trials skippers, but I've never heard than anything but a trap was proposed by BenBob. 

I never spoke to Ben about the Contender before his untimely death, but I do have one of his few written pieces and the transcript of a talk I was lucky enough to attend as a kid, where he briefly mentioned the Contender IIRC.

I'll be fascinated to read your story and must buy the Contender book. I'm not sure about the politics behind the scenes; I'd think that given the history of the time (when Australia had only just got its own vote in the IYRU, among other things) the Contender's backers were fairly powerless.




Edited by Chris 249 - 15 Aug 14 at 12:33pm
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