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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 14 Aug 14 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by Rupert

That is probably the closest a boat has got to the Olympics without it happening,

Lets try and think of some leading contenders and near misses...
470/Fireball is an obvious one.
49er/Laser 5 Tonner/Boss/B14
49erFX/29erXX/RS800
Soling/Etchells
what else?
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Posts: 478 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iiitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 14 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by Rupert

The Radial as an Olympic class was totally logical, apart from maybe for the actual sailing part of things. I thought it the wrong choice at the time, but have come to see that maybe it was a good way of getting hundreds of bums on seats very quickly. Numbers in the Radial seem very strong, and not thought of as a "girl's boat"?

Exactly Rupert.......not thought of as a 'girls' boat. It may have been more tactful if you had said, 'ladies and light males boat'. 

Helms may be small but they pack a vicious scratch!!!
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 14 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Rupert

That is probably the closest a boat has got to the Olympics without it happening,

Lets try and think of some leading contenders and near misses...
470/Fireball is an obvious one.
49er/Laser 5 Tonner/Boss/B14
49erFX/29erXX/RS800
Soling/Etchells
what else?


The Contender is in the situation the 49er would have been in if, after all the trials and viewpoints taken, they had turned around and stuck with the FD. In my view, it puts it closer than all the others you list - they were all near (or far) misses.

However, what your list shows is that there is no simple answer - all those boats have fared differently both to each other and to the selected boats.
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Posts: 267 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jaydub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 14 at 1:05pm
Certainly hasn't harmed the Fireballs not being selected as an Olympic class.
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gordon1277 View Drop Down
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Posts: 665 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon1277 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 14 at 1:24pm
Nobody has mentioned the FD good job the 505 missed it.
170 at the worlds in Kiel but UK fleet has shrunk so much. UK FD fleet never really got to sensible numbers in my time.
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GarethT View Drop Down
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Posts: 714 		Post Options Post Options   Quote GarethT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 14 at 1:26pm
Maybe it would never have got to the size it was in the UK without the Olympics!
 
Who knows if all the FD sailors back in the day would've gone 505 if FD wasn't Olympic, or if the roles would've been reversed if the 505 was the Olympic boat.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 14 at 1:49pm
The 505? As a rich gentleman's plaything, fortunes have been spent. Would those same rich gentlemen have been willing to spend as much money if they would then be beaten by sponsored young bucks on the hunt for Olympic glory? Maybe the FD would have been the boat of choice, then?
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 14 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by Rupert

The Olympic curse was that a class would get shedloads of money spent on it, so a mast would set you back more than a whole different boat, have a bunch of pro sailors which no weekend warrior could hope to keep up with sailing it, and so people wouldn't sail it. Oddly, it really appears to be a myth. Far more likely is that the Olympic boats were already big classes elsewhere, and the UK had boats filling that niche already. The 470, huge in France and all over Europe, really, but up against the Fireball here. The Finn big in northern Europe - actually, never really a failure here, just a small market, and the classics are going strong. The Star - huge in the Americas. The Europe - a very complex one, that, I think, and certainly the development expense (and the "sailed by girls thing?) was a problem, but mostly once it ceased to be an Olympic class. The Tempest? Killed by the Star lobby?

420 never an Olympic class? Pretty big everywhere, and still is in less fashion conscious countries. Might be here, too. Not checked.

As for the Laser, most owners appear not to care less whether it is in the Olympics. Is really only a sideshow for the class, as far as I can see, and maybe not one that either helps or hinders sales.
Thanks Rupert.  Looks like a good start.

Sorry, I had it fixed in my mind that the 420 had a one or two rounds as the Womens dinghy.

So, did the Europe and Tempest fit the Curse model?  Successful class to start with, then propelled into arms race and hyper-competition freezing out  the punters?  

Does that fit for the Europe?

I don't think that applies to the Tempest:  it was a very radical boat to start with, with, I suspect, quite a small fleet base (to say nothing of being very unlikely to have been seen anywhere in the third world) that got a brief place in the sun thanks to a desire to pitch something modern  and radical up against the Star, and then faded back into well-deserved obscurity.

Is it still true to say that there are huge fleets (or rather substantial club fleets) of 470 in Europe and UK?
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 14 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by jaydub

Certainly hasn't harmed the Fireballs not being selected as an Olympic class.

Originally posted by JimC

Another interesting question would be whether the enthusiasm with which classes pursue Olympic status is justified. Trouble is, of course, you never get to find out what would have happened...

Uh huhh?
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 14 at 3:27pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Rupert

That is probably the closest a boat has got to the Olympics without it happening,

Lets try and think of some leading contenders and near misses...
470/Fireball is an obvious one.
49er/Laser 5 Tonner/Boss/B14
49erFX/29erXX/RS800
Soling/Etchells
what else?


The Contender is in the situation the 49er would have been in if, after all the trials and viewpoints taken, they had turned around and stuck with the FD. In my view, it puts it closer than all the others you list - they were all near (or far) misses.

However, what your list shows is that there is no simple answer - all those boats have fared differently both to each other and to the selected boats.

AIUI from the History on the Contender website, the IYRU trials were for admission of a new solo boat as an ISAF International Class, not trials for an Olympics boat.

Given that the ISAF trials criteria specifically ruled out the trapeze, surely the Contender was never going to knock off the Finn.

To be honest, Contenders are far from accessible:  I remember a lovely guy who had actually done a 505 worlds with Paul Elvstrom walking into the bar one day off a Contender:  Good day?  Yeah, Ok, thirty tacks, thirty pickles.

At least a beginner can jump into a Finn and sail the damn thing without it necessarily falling over.

I rather think the the Contenders have now settled down into a niche about equal to the International Canoe.  Maybe for Olympic Curse purposes they could be compared with the Tempest.

You guys would know better than I would, but of the face-offs JimC has listed, I would have thought the only serious trial was the Etchells v Soling (and, to be fair the Womens' Skiff trial).

Did the Fireballs seriously come out against the 470?

I can't believe that anyone would compare a B14 with a 49er.  They are a Bethwaite generation apart (well, perhaps not Frank v Julian, but at least 10 years).  Was the contest with the B14 really to replace the 470 with a modern high performance boat that wasn't quite a skiff?


Edited by Brass - 14 Aug 14 at 3:32pm
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