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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 9:55am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by dogslife

The secret to success seems to be to just chose the "bandit class" of the moment and if you can keep it upright you stand chance of being in the prizes no matter how inept you might otherwise be.

I challenge you to produce your club's main handicap series with the results worked out for both the current handicaps and what you think they should be.

Given the amount of DNCs on a typical club series, I think it's fair to assume most folks couldn't give a f**k for their club series results.  They do however care for their individual result on any given race, and as such, are grateful for the efforts of the results compiler and entitled to their views about classes which have seen rapid development and a lag factor in the PN allocation.    

Do I think that 1010 will turn out to be a challenging handicap for the Aero and/or Zero?  Absolutely, that's exactly why the Great Lakes scheme have settled on it and as such, it meets their objectives.  Give them a year or two, when they actually have some RYA data to throw in to the mix and it could well soften, or maybe not.    

The RYA encourage local adjustment, which is exactly what the Great Lakes numbers do.  But don't fall in to the trap of assuming that local adjustment is purely to create fairer racing.  It can also be used to load the dice for whatever reason including commercial and political reasoning- in this case, to prevent a new class from walking away with the chocolates, irrespective of the person steering.  Why?  i don't know really, in any other walk of life, showcasing a new product within an event framework also out for recognition for its sponsors tends to be mutually beneficial.  You certainly don't go to the Geneva Motor Show to see the same old dross from Ford and Vauxhall.  

However, if you don't like that, and their reasons for it, then you are quite within your rights to not attend and go to another event.  As Rodney says, the Lord Birkett has settled on 1044 for this year, so there are other events out there which have a more realistic approach to the actual anticipated performance, rather than a deliberate attempt to ensure it is not that competitive.


Edited by kneewrecker - 03 Jul 14 at 10:03am
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 10:01am
I wouldn't mind if the 'chocolates' were even worth protecting, but it's hardly a 50,000 dollar prize fund is it? What are the Sail juice lot protecting? A few deals with lipstick builders? What is it? It makes no sense?

The Laser thing does at least have some logic in the numbers being swelled by dragging boats out of the nettles getting bums on gunwales.
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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 10:27am
Originally posted by iGRF

What are the Sail juice lot protecting? A few deals with lipstick builders? What is it? It makes no sense?

Actually it makes total sense- one of those difficult decisions that's not going to be universally popular.

Dinghy racing is in decline.  The RYA stats are in denial.  There are less people travelling to class events, and this year, my gut instinct says there are less people participating regularly at club level racing too.   

I have only looked at the results of one or two clubs recently, but it seems to be the trend I can see.  The reasons for that are probably for another thread- I personally blame the economy, windguru and social media.  But I'm realistic enough to know those genies smashed their bottles on their way out and on a personal level, there's no way I'm leaving a ten grand boat sitting on the drive at the whims and indecision of a Facebook group deciding whether an event is on or not.  My free time is too precious....  

Sail Juice offers a platform for us to fit in some pre-planned sailing into that free time, assuring us that there will be sufficient numbers to justify the running of the event.  In order to do this, they adopt a conservative approach when it comes to new boats and gear the handicapping accordingly to encourage those with older boats to come along.  As a result, traditional classes do seemingly benefit.  

They also happen to have open sailmakers and peripherals, which as we know, leads to semi-pro and pro sailors in those classes championing their growth.  Why some new boat builders launch without engaging that network of sailmakers I simply don't understand  I guess the mark-up on a new rag is where the money is in the long term, so decimating your value chain vs increased market reach becomes a clinical decision- skewed by the success that is the Laser no doubt, but I'd say the rise of the Solo, Phantom, Contender, Int Moth in a falling domestic market etc would be better case studies for launching a new boat.  

As I said, if any of us don't like that they gear the handicapping such to swell participation, then we are quite free to sail elsewhere at other events.




Edited by kneewrecker - 03 Jul 14 at 10:32am
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 10:59am
Case of greatest good to the greatest number. If you guess a handicap that is unfavourable to a new class then only the tiny minority who sail that boat are disadvantaged. If you guess a handicap that is favourable to a new class then the vast majority of competitors in the event are unfairly treated. Therefore you should err on the unfavourable side.
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Posts: 745 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 11:09am
Originally posted by JimC

Case of greatest good to the greatest number. If you guess a handicap that is unfavourable to a new class then only the tiny minority who sail that boat are disadvantaged. If you guess a handicap that is favourable to a new class then the vast majority of competitors in the event are unfairly treated. Therefore you should err on the unfavourable side.
Agree with Jim here and to be frank, i dont blame them.  They simply cannot afford for a new class to rock up and win the event as regardless of the sailor.  There will be uproar regarding the PY, so the boat is hamstrung to ensure it doesnt win.  Please the masses not the few.  i would do the same, and as a future Zero owner I wouldnt want to win an event in the early stages of class development.  it would completely cheapen my result.  Winning to me is defeating others, walking away with an inward smile safe in the knowledge that my best was the best.  There is no glory winning on a piece of paper and trick of a calculator!
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Posts: 317 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Blue One Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 11:24am
Originally posted by Null

Originally posted by JimC

Case of greatest good to the greatest number. If you guess a handicap that is unfavourable to a new class then only the tiny minority who sail that boat are disadvantaged. If you guess a handicap that is favourable to a new class then the vast majority of competitors in the event are unfairly treated. Therefore you should err on the unfavourable side.
Agree with Jim here and to be frank, i dont blame them.  They simply cannot afford for a new class to rock up and win the event as regardless of the sailor.  There will be uproar regarding the PY, so the boat is hamstrung to ensure it doesnt win.  Please the masses not the few.  i would do the same, and as a future Zero owner I wouldnt want to win an event in the early stages of class development.  it would completely cheapen my result.  Winning to me is defeating others, walking away with an inward smile safe in the knowledge that my best was the best.  There is no glory winning on a piece of paper and trick of a calculator!

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kneewrecker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 11:37am
precisely... doing well (mid fleet) at 1010 would be far more satisfying than getting in the top 10 at 10** and having accusations of banditry thrown at you.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 12:57pm
Precisely why the sport is stymied, the lunatics running the asylum.

It can never grow with that sort of attitude..

Flagship events should showcase the future, not operate as an extreme Museum Makeover show.

It's f**ked.
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alstorer View Drop Down
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 1:21pm
Yet another PY argument? Really?
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 1:30pm
Hardly anyone owns a boat from the future, so it is difficult to get anyone taking part in such an event. Maybe the point of these events to to get a large group of sailors together to have a fun day/weekend.

If you want an event showcasing the future, then you need a different approach, I think. Maybe each manufacturer supplies 10 boats which can be leased to competitors, and you then, say have 8 fleets (DZero, Aero 5, 7, 9, Icon, K2, 2 more new classes) with 80 boats on the water racing as 8 fleets of 10 for 1 1/2 days, with a giant all in race at the end where speeds can be compared. It could attract big sponsorship, be freebies for spectators, be broadcast on the interweb, have a grandstand. People would see the new product, there could be more boats there for taster sails - all in all, a grand weekend out both for competitors and for the companies trying to sell their boats. The 80 boats are sold during the event to be collected at the end.
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