New Singlehanders: PYs

   Of those trying out the new D-Zero, Aero, Fire...any feel for where they might come in on the PY-scale? I've seen 1050 somewhere for the DZ, on the rumour mill around Blaze speed for the Aero, nothing I know of for the Fire as yet.

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Jeepers Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Posting king Joined: 26 May 11 Location: Hamphire Online Status: Offline Posts: 147	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jeepers Report Post Quote Reply Topic: New Singlehanders: PYs Posted: 20 May 14 at 7:04pm
	Of those trying out the new D-Zero, Aero, Fire...any feel for where they might come in on the PY-scale? I've seen 1050 somewhere for the DZ, on the rumour mill around Blaze speed for the Aero, nothing I know of for the Fire as yet.

kneewrecker Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 09 Apr 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1586	Post Options Post Reply Quote kneewrecker Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 20 May 14 at 8:39pm
	I've heard 1050 bounced around a bit too, think it was a 'Peaky Number'... but I think the class, devoti and suntouched would be very unwise to publish anything- as would Mike with his new variations. Let clubs give them whatever they want, then once some returns go in, I'm sure the PYAG will issue an appropriate EN as a better guide to tighten it all up a bit. They are committed folks on that committee- driven by continuous improvement and speedier change, despite what some quarters here may say. It's a simple boat, but it will still take a couple of months for most of us to approach dialling it in, so in my opinion, any number is fairly meaningless for the short-term... why confuse the situation by formally issuing something that neither class nor builder are authorised to do? If folks are holding fire on buying until they see what the PY is, well, I guess they are missing the point somewhat. I think the PY discussion around the 3 Aero classes has a lot more forum chat mileage... I genuinely wonder what difference the extra sail areas translate to in terms of a EN/PN. One things for sure, without stringent class rules around weight categories vs sail areas, it's going to be a challenging one to generate a number for and maintain some semblance of 'fairness' about it- especially as the sails are effectively marketed under weight guidance and three separate classes.

iGRF Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6499	Post Options Post Reply Quote iGRF Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 20 May 14 at 9:30pm
	1050 was what the Punk raced off for what three years and unlikely any of us are going to sail it to the same standard Dan managed.
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kneewrecker Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 09 Apr 14 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1586	Post Options Post Reply Quote kneewrecker Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 20 May 14 at 9:47pm
	yep, but it also appeared generous to me from the sidelines at the FOM... (I know Rodney, 'STFU JIMBO')... that was until someone explained Mr Holman's background. So as Mark said post-event, the best sailor won... funny that really. I'm not overly bothered either way as I'm confident that given a year or two the PYAG will have something that represents as statistically accurate a recommendation it can provide. 1050 seems like a viable starting point to me, but wtf do I know. Decent Handicap racing isn't exactly something I'm experienced in... I've not really had access to it for quite some time. Best thing Devoti can do is say nuffin' , not until it's in relation to the initial assessment of the PYAG. Edited by kneewrecker - 20 May 14 at 9:47pm

JimC Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662	Post Options Post Reply Quote JimC Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 20 May 14 at 9:49pm
	There are two systems I'm aware of which aim to predict a PY number from dimensions. One is Dan's spreadsheet which is a form of VPP, and the other is Peaky's regression analysis for the singlehanded classes. If the numbers for all those boats are plumbed into those two separate systems, and they come up with answers in the same sort of ballpark, then I'd think that as good a basis for a trial number as anything else.

AlexM Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 10 Jan 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 857	Post Options Post Reply Quote AlexM Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 20 May 14 at 10:03pm
	Just for fun Zero - Similar stat's to a Rooster 8.1 but better mast/lighter (1044), so about 1030? Aero Big rig - Might be faster.. 1020? Length Beam PY Hull weight Sail Area Supernova 4.3 m 1.5 m 1071 62.5 kg 8 sq m Rooster 8.1 4.23 m 1.37 m 1044 60 kg 8.1 sq m D Zero 4.2 m 1.42 m 1030? 40 kg 8.1 sq m EPS 4.3 m 2.4 m 1024 53.5 kgs8.4 - 9.3 sq m Aero 4.0 m 1.4 m 1020? 30 kgs 8.9 sq m Phantom 4.42 m 1.64 m 1002 61 kgs 9.75 sq m Edited by AlexM - 20 May 14 at 10:09pm

Medway Maniac Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 13 May 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2788	Post Options Post Reply Quote Medway Maniac Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 20 May 14 at 11:53pm
	My best estimates. By statistical analysis: D-Zero 1033 Aero 5 1132 Aero 7 1058 Aero 9 1031 By using basic data to analyse likely performance in three wind ranges and guessing at typical windspeed distribution (will be different inland and at sea anyway so all may go up or down with wind, and takes no account of subtleties like rig efficiency - how can we know?): D-Zero 1049 Aero 5 1142 Aero 7 1069 Aero 9 1040 So the Zero and Aero 9 are likely to battle it out, Aero 9 having the edge in the light stuff and maybe downwind in a blow, Zero having it in powered up stuff and upwind in a blow. Aero 7 as 'Radial' to 9's 'Standard' , while relatively speaking the Aero 5 is the '4.7', but each being appreciably quicker than their Laser counterparts. Then again, surely we've all seen well sailed Radials beat Standard Lasers on occasion, so sailor dependent and nothing is written in stone. Whatever, it is going to be very interesting. If I were 70-odd kg upwards I'd certainly want to try, and get the feeling of both before I decided which to buy, even if I feel heavily drawn to the Zero. Unfortunately, at 63kg I don't seem have the option unless I want to see lardies relentlessly draw away from me upwind like they currently do in Standards. Maybe I need to move to Grumph's fabled windless inland pond.
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blaze720 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635	Post Options Post Reply Quote blaze720 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 21 May 14 at 8:15am
	Here we go again ..... All is speculation. The nearest to actual imposed PNs I've seen to date is those imposed at the Glynn Charles at HISC on the weekend ... (when we were in Icon 03 sailing off **** knows what with the Merlins which we finished behind of course - yes those spinnakers DO make a difference). Anyway HISC published the following .... Aero 5 - same start number as Finn, Laser II, Albacore Aero 7 - same start number as Blaze, Tasar, Kestrel, older FFs Aero 9 + D-Zero - same start number as Blaze-Halo, Phantom And whoever said Mike was not going to speculate about 'Fire' .... Absolutely and of course I'm not going there. If you excuse the pun you get 'flamed' either way. Enjoy ! Mike L. Edited by blaze720 - 21 May 14 at 8:27am

Rupert Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956	Post Options Post Reply Quote Rupert Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 21 May 14 at 8:41am
	Its OK Mike - just forum wind... I'd say this is a subject which can cause hours of debate for those of us not in a position to go sailing right now! But one best avoided by anyone building or marketing any of the boats mentioned. No good can come of it! My personal feeling - no stats involved, never seen any of the boats on the water, so likely to be as accurate as anyone else... Blaze Fire 20 points slower than Blaze. D Zero about 1040 assuming the sail area is as measured - pretty sure the Rooster 8.1 sail is rather larger than that in reality, just as a Laser sail is bigger than its nominal area. Aero - it is a short boat compared to the D Zero, and waterline length is king going upwind, so I think it will be very fast in some conditions, but overall will be slower than predicted so far on PY. I'll go for 1055 for the 9, 1075 for the 7 and 1130 for the 5. That would put the 5 as faster than the Solo,which I think it will struggle to beat in the real world except in big breeze on open water, so what do I know! I guess we can check bak on these in a couple of years and see who was right!
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blaze720 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635	Post Options Post Reply Quote blaze720 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 21 May 14 at 8:51am
	Hi Rupert On THIS one I'm going to play spectator ! HISC obviously have their justifications .. and 'predictive' spreadsheets are not actually much use to man or beast in the real world imo - but perhaps fun on forums of course. Like the PN system they are inevitably very crude and simply ignore factors that cannot be easily 'measured' such as hull form/shape etc. Many of these 'missing' factors are often critically important. Mike L.