Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Rupert ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 23 Apr 14 at 10:51am |
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Accusing someone of lying on an open forum (where many people appear to know who was involved) seems like very poor form, especially when they are a club mate? Could make for some very awkward moments in the changing rooms or bar.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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ohFFsake ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 04 Sep 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 219 |
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Not sure either of those assertions is actually true, however I have now amended my previous post in the hopes of making the original meaning clearer.
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Brass ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
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Don't want to beat a dead horse about the decision, but, given that this was obviously a 'he said/she said' case from the start, L was stark mad to have gone into the room without his crew as a witness. There is absolutely no requirement that witnesses be 'independent'. Protest committees should primarily expect that witnesses, even though they may be crew or otherwise interested parties will tell the truth, and will not give untrue evidence in favour of their interest. Telling lies in a protest hearing is a gross breach of sportsmanship and subject to severe penalties under rule 69. A protest committee should normally have a good reason before it discards or discounts a witness' evidence.
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Presuming Ed ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 26 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 641 |
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But how often do crew witnesses bring anything new to the table? IME, they tend to tell a very similar story to the boats' original representatives. They're generally sitting somewhere similar, and rarely in the right position. For judging the establishment of overlaps, you want someone placed where a wing umpire would be. Outside that, I don't see why 2 people from one boat - especially dinghies, where people are sitting next to each other - saying "we had an overlap" holds any greater weight than one person saying the same thing.
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Brass ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
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In my opinion, the credible evidence of one witness, corroborated by the credible evidence of another witness is of greater weight than the contrary credible evidence of another witness alone.
Of course, if the evidence of your witness contradicts your own ...
Edited by Brass - 01 May 14 at 3:00pm |
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Presuming Ed ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 26 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 641 |
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Well, exactly. It's very nice when one side's witnesses destroys their own side's case. Not common, IME (but does happen). But again IME, three people from one boat saying the same thing has no greater weight than one person. Shades of [Mandy Rice-Davies]"They would say that, wouldn't they."[/MRD]
It's not unknown for PC chairs over here to say "It's now time for witnesses. If your witnesses are crewmembers, then in our experience they tend to back up the story of their boat, and don't bring much new to the proceedings, but it does take more time. We all want to - within the constraints of doing our job properly - do this reasonably quickly. So you might consider whether it's worth bringing your crew into the room. But as I say, it's entirely your choice".
Most seem to go along with that. Edited by Presuming Ed - 01 May 14 at 3:50pm |
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Roger ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Mar 04 Location: Somerset Online Status: Offline Posts: 524 |
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Surely this could be quite an issue in mixed fleets where 2 person boats are racing against, and maybe involved in a protest with, a singlehander. Assuming all witnesses are credible does the evidence from the 2 crew on one boat therefore carry more weight than the one in the singlehander? |
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JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6661 |
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OTOH if I came across an obviously carefully coached crew that might make me draw some conclusions too.
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ohFFsake ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 04 Sep 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 219 |
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Point taken - and that of your earlier message. You are (as ever) absolutely right that bringing the crew as witness ought to have had some effect, especially in the case where said crew is sufficiently young and free of guile that a skilled PC should be able to determine whether their evidence is genuine or "coached". (In this instance it wasn't possible - the protest was heard on Easter Monday when we were away at a regatta) In the general case, I get the feeling that this is an area where procedure has improved markedly over the years. Way back when I was a youth, the general feeling was that protests were very much about onus and burden of proof - if you were the port in a port v starboard then the default situation was that you would lose every time unless you had an impressive array of independent witnesses. Now it seems that a correctly run PC should treat every piece of evidence on its own merits and assume nothing by default. This I think is a Good Thing, and if nothing else this thread has been very interesting in terms of covering this point. |
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Brass ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
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It's not a question of 'bringing anything new'. It's a question of corroboration. When, subject to your very valid reservations about position, distance, lines of sight and so on, a witness gives evidence, which we should assume to be truthful unless we have good reason to doubt it, about what they saw, heard and felt in an incident and that evidence is consistent with and corroborative of the evidence of one party, and contrary to the evidence of another, then we should prefer the consistent version of the party and the witness over the uncorroborated evidence of the other party. As I said before
A protest committee has no business approaching the evidence of a witness on any basis other than that the witness will tell the truth to the best of their ability.
The way in which evidence should be weighed by a protest committee can hardly be expected to vary because boats are one or two handed. It could also be argued that the evidence of a single-hander was less credible because the single-handed skipper had a greater range of necessary tasks than any one of the crew of a crewed boat, and thus may have had less perfect observation and recall. That's the way of things.
Edited by Brass - 02 May 14 at 1:19am |
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