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| Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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| Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Start Line Collision |
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gordon 
Really should get out more 
Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
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 Topic: Start Line CollisionPosted: 17 Apr 14 at 8:02pm |
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It is not unknown for a party at a hearing to refer to a relevant RYA or ISAF Case, the final summing up is a good moment to do this. In small clubs it may even be a good idea to have a copy of the case available!
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Gordon
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ohFFsake
Far too distracted from work 
Joined: 04 Sep 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 219 |
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Posted: 17 Apr 14 at 8:20pm |
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*nods vigorously*
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ohFFsake
Far too distracted from work
Joined: 04 Sep 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 219 |
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Posted: 21 Apr 14 at 10:41pm |
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Quick follow up:
Protest was heard tonight. Only witnesses in attendance were the two helms. L's version of events was as described earlier in the thread. W's version of events was that L approached from behind at speed, never gained an overlap to leeward but simply sailed into his transom. PC found that L did not give W sufficient room to keep clear and disqualified him. Possibly one of the worst aspects of our self policing sport is when two parties present such diametrically opposed accounts to a protest committee as to make one wonder whether they are even discussing the same incident! Edited by ohFFsake - 23 Apr 14 at 11:07am |
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sargesail
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Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459 |
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Posted: 22 Apr 14 at 12:29am |
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Couldn't agree more with your last sentence - especially having been subject to the same situation but with the lie reversed (ie I was W and L lied).
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JimC
Really should get out more
Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6661 |
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Posted: 22 Apr 14 at 8:34am |
One thing I've learned as I've got older is the amazing flexibility of memory and just how prone the human race is to convert their memory of what happened into their memory of what they would like to think happened. It really is very hard to work out what happened in a protest hearing if all you have to work with is the evidence of two people some days after it happened. That's why protest hearings should really be held on the day and before anyone has left the premises. Subconscious hasn't had a chance to edit memory and witnesses, however vague, are still available. In a startline incident like this there would have been plenty of people who could reinforce or contradict some aspects of both boats stories, so its crazy holding a hearing when none of them are available. Who'd want to be a PC in a hearing like this? Two people with an entirely different recollection of events, and, it seems, maybe not even the committee boat crew to give an idea of what hails they heard... Edited by JimC - 23 Apr 14 at 12:22pm |
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gordon
Really should get out more
Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
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Posted: 22 Apr 14 at 8:36am |
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What were the facts found by the PC - was there an overlap established or was L clear astern and hit W's transom?
It is a common occurrence that the parties at a hearing have very different recall of events. This does not mean that they are lying. If an allegation is made that a party deliberately lied this can lead to a 69 hearing. PC's are rarely convinced that someone is lying. If such an allegation is upheld I am in favour of severe penalties, because lying in a hearing goes against the fundamental principles of our sport. In this case L, sitting some distance from the bow, may be convinced that there is an overlap, whilst W, nearer the stern of his boat, might be convinced that there was not. In the same way, if no mark is left on the boat it can be difficult to agree on the exact point of contact. It is not the PC's job to decide which version of events they believe, it is to establish, from sometimes contradictory evidence, a series of facts, on the balance of probabilities, sufficient to arrive at conclusions to resolve the dispute between the parties. In this case - if L believes that they had established an overlap and W does not, but both agree that there was contact, then, on the balance of probability, I would probably conclude that L established an overlap but did not initially give W room to keep clear. L broke rule 15! However, |
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Gordon
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ohFFsake
Far too distracted from work
Joined: 04 Sep 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 219 |
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Posted: 22 Apr 14 at 8:45am |
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My understanding, from L, is that the boats were more or less fully alongside each other when the initial contact was made, which was corroborated by his crew, who happens to be my daughter!
I believe a photo taken from ashore has also since come to light which shows L close hauled to leeward of W, who is reaching with sheets eased. I find it very hard to reconcile all of this with W's claim of being hit from astern. Time to draw a line under it and move on. The hard thing here is not to get too up tight with the PC, who will doubtless have been trying their best to resolve things fairly. |
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JimC
Really should get out more
Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6661 |
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Posted: 22 Apr 14 at 8:49am |
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As a thought in this one, consider the reported language from W... Does that sound like the result of what was reported, a normal start line situation we've all been in lots of times, or more like the response of someone who's just been rammed from behind by some fool not paying attention?
I wonder, for instance, if there could first have been contact from behind which L didn't notice and then the boats ended up side by side, and W had never had a chance to keep clear? There are lots of scenarios possible... And a photo doesn't help at all with many of them. Edited by JimC - 22 Apr 14 at 8:55am |
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andymck
Far too distracted from work
Joined: 15 Dec 06 Location: Stamford Online Status: Offline Posts: 397 |
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Posted: 22 Apr 14 at 11:45pm |
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I must admit, especially having thought a lot about this one on the water at the weekend, and done some dummy runs at competitors, I am not surprised L lost, though I would have still wanted to hear there was an attempt by W to get clear.
I was lining up on boats sitting plodding on broad reaches, close hauled as described, coming in from under a boat length to leeward at establishment of overlap. it was windy, so there was a big speed difference. I had to bear away every time to give W time to keep clear. Andy
Edited by andymck - 22 Apr 14 at 11:46pm |
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Andy Mck
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jeffers
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Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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Posted: 23 Apr 14 at 9:53am |
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It would be interesting to know what the 'facts found' were by the PC in coming to this decision.
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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