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Start Line Collision

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ohFFsake View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ohFFsake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Start Line Collision
    Posted: 15 Apr 14 at 12:53pm
Incident on the start line of a recent race.

W & L both on Starboard, approaching pin end of start line.
L accelerates and gains an overlap on W from clear astern.
contact ensued between the two boats and W protested.
L claims gave W had ample room to keep clear but failed to do so, in order to avoid starting prematurely
W claims L failed to give room to keep clear.
Q1. In the absence of independent witnesses, where does the onus of proof lie?
As a secondary issue, after the collision W made repeated loud hails to L, using foul and abusive language. This was witnessed by many other sailors some of whom were juniors (including L's crew). No separate protest was made about this at the time
Q2. Would it be appropriate for L to bring this to the attention of the protest committee, in respect of the original incident?
Any case law and guidance on appropriate penalties would be fantastic. Protest has not been heard yet.
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tgruitt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tgruitt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 14 at 12:59pm
I would say L is fine. What did W expect to happen if there was a gap to leeward for L to sail in to?
Needs to sail more...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 14 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by ohFFsake

 using foul and abusive language. 

Is there a definition here?  Abusive enough to be banned on television?  So foul it's not included the OED? 

Was it of a racist, sexist or of an anti-religious slur in nature?  

Or just are we talking just an intensifying adjective like 'f**king'... which you can find in a One Direction song and on the lips of bronze medal winning Olympic Sailors?


Edited by kneewrecker - 15 Apr 14 at 1:18pm
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AlexM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AlexM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 14 at 1:21pm
Or like your user name... ;-)

I wouldn't say L was fine, it's up to them to prove they gave time and opportunity for W to keep clear once the overlap had been established
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Neal_g Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 14 at 1:26pm
the fact L came from clear astern and went to leeward of W after the start lead to a no right to luff, so in theory the rules apply from the prepartory flag as L came from clear astern she had the option to go to windward therefore no right to luff W
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Time Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 14 at 1:42pm
No mention that it was after the start and therefore L has every right to luff up to head to wind and if this forces W over the line then it is tough on W.

As for the language, it would be up to one of the other boats or the race committee to protest W - by the sound of it there were plenty of people within earshot. Also presumably W was too busy swearing to actually protest and hence his protest should be thrown out as W did not protest at the first opportunity but relied on Anglo Saxon language instead.
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ohFFsake View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ohFFsake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 14 at 1:50pm
Yes it was ore start so no proper course requirement, the question is simply that in a "my word against yours" situation over whether sufficient room was given, which boat has the burden of proof.

Regarding the bad language, perhaps I could turn that on its head by asking what would constitute sufficiently bad for a pc to consider it actionable.

Pretty sure that w did hail protest at soonest opportunity
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 14 at 3:03pm
AIUI the RRS has pretty much abandoned the burden of proof bit because it gave an advantage to blatant liars. The PC has to listen to everyone and make their best effort to understand what really happened.

The amount of bad language that would be considered inappropriate depends very much on the fleet and circumstances. A Sydney Skiff fleet racing out of earshot of the shore would be held to very different standards to a fleet featuring lots of youth sailors sailing on a river in clear earshot of hundreds of passers by.

In the case of a rule 69 the process is different: its not strictly a protest. Best to read it up here
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 14 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by ohFFsake

Regarding the bad language, perhaps I could turn that on its head by asking what would constitute sufficiently bad for a pc to take action


That's a good question, but considering Ainslie effectively got away with decking someone on a media boat, I think we can probably take our chances in calling someone a c*nt if we really feel it necessary in the heat of the moment.

(Although I've never met anyone on the water who would fit that level of verbal description personally, that delightful term would be reserved for far lower life form than fellow competitors, even those considered a bit of at**t...)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote deadrock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 14 at 4:05pm
Unknown information:
Was this before the start, or after?
Was W stationary (or almost) on the line, without any way on to manoeuvre?
Did L luff?
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