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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Posts: 2003 		Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Icon Class Association
    Posted: 09 Apr 14 at 11:28am
Originally posted by AlexM

Yes but Steve's speed in a 300 will definitly be much quicker than the PY, maybe 50 pts?!?

true enough.... btw I'm not questioning the EN, if that's the data I'm sure it's accurate and I doubt very much there's any agenda here from the PYAG.  

I recommend Mike drags a bucket around with him on the next boat he launches....

edit- sh*t, just noticed the post count, time to hit the tardis and regenerate.


Edited by yellowwelly - 09 Apr 14 at 11:30am
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 14 at 11:30am
Originally posted by yellowwelly

Originally posted by Chris 249

If you take a boat and add 12% more sail, about 4% more waterline length and about 40 years of design progress, how much speed do you expect to add?




depends on the design brief.... I don't get the vibe that top-speed was the primary goal.  Ease of use and nice boat to sail was... which from looking at it, it seems to do well.  I certainly came away from racing against one thinking it was a 'good boat'... whatever that's worth anyway.

under different circumstances, Steve's post above basically saying it's around the same speed as a 300, would by my reckoning, be a very positive contribution.  '300 speed' is in my opinion the perfect club racing speed for dinghies, especially inland... fast enough to enjoy it, slow enough to deliver good quality racing.

I get the point about pure speed not being the over-riding priority but the same applies to the Tasar, the boat that I was comparing it to. So the Icon still has the advantage of being a longer, newer design with more sail. The Icon does have a heavier hull and a CB slot to drag around but it also has a carbon mast, and the modern NS hull that inspired the Icon is significantly quicker than the early '70s underwater shape of the Tasar.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 14 at 11:37am
Knowing a little about the Icon, I'd say that Phantom pace in the light and Blaze pace in a breeze is about right. I reckon that could put you anywhere between 980 and 1015 if comparing against today's numbers. A few years back that would have been 10-20 points higher (as Phants and Blazes have both reduced in recent years).
It could have been made quicker, but that wasn't the objective.
But what this really shows is not that the Icon has been unfairly treated, but that PY calculations are not an accurate science. I strongly believe that PYs should be rounded to the nearest 5 at the very least, as the 4 digit system implies a level of accuracy that simply does not exist.
A valid statistically objective test would be to take all race results where icons raced against similar boats e.g. Merlin's, 400s etc and see whether the Icon performs at 969 v those boats.

People like certainty where none exists. In reality, the best that can be said is that there is a 95% chance that boat boat x has a PY of 1000 +- 30. Boat Y has a 95% chance of having a PY of 1010 +- 25.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 14 at 11:38am
Chris, the Icon is shorter than a Tasar overall, not too sure about waterline length.
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Noah View Drop Down
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Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 14 at 12:25pm
At Shoreham we race Merlins and 'Balls off the same PY. The Merlin fleet is - subjectively - higher 'quality' than the 'balls. Below x knots the Merlins will walk away. x-y we're racing boat on boat & IF (rarely) I manage to beat one of the quick ones I'm a happy bunny. Above y knots they get crucified. Values for x and y depend on wind direction & sea state & tide.
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 14 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by Noah

At Shoreham we race Merlins and 'Balls off the same PY. The Merlin fleet is - subjectively - higher 'quality' than the 'balls. Below x knots the Merlins will walk away. x-y we're racing boat on boat & IF (rarely) I manage to beat one of the quick ones I'm a happy bunny. Above y knots they get crucified. Values for x and y depend on wind direction & sea state & tide.

Which illustrates perfectly why handicap fleets need to be split not by PY into "Fast", "Medium" etc. but first into "Trapeze" (to include planks etc) and "Non-Trapeze".  

Gives high-wind-performing hikers like the Tasar and 2000 a chance.  Only quandary then is what to do with the racked boats like the Blaze... 
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 14 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by Peaky

Chris, the Icon is shorter than a Tasar overall, not too sure about waterline length.

The Tasar LWL is 14'. While the bow overhang does give it a greater LOA than the Icon, the overhang is not a performance improvement - it was put there to reduce spray (for colder northern climes) and to make it look more conventional so that it could appeal to markets such as the USA. 

For what it's worth I can only agree about the remarks by you, Noah and MM about the limitations of PY (or VYC as we have down here).
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 14 at 1:02pm
I like the way the 'know it all convicts' can comment about something they've neither seen nor sailed, in such an informed way, not content to infest us with their Bethwaite inspired garbage they continue to think that anyone cares what they say or think..
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 14 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by boatshed

Originally posted by Chris 249

If you take a boat and add 12% more sail, about 4% more waterline length and about 40 years of design progress, how much speed do you expect to add?




About 2.5% for the water line alone.    If the  Tasar PY is 1018 that would make the Icon around 990.

Add more sail area and 40 years of design improvements, who knows but maybe another 1.5% putting the Icon at 975, so, not a bus ride away from the EN.

Interesting.
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Posts: 317 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Blue One Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 14 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by iGRF

I like the way the 'know it all convicts' can comment about something they've neither seen nor sailed, in such an informed way, not content to infest us with their Bethwaite inspired garbage they continue to think that anyone cares what they say or think..

Still practicing your bollox, I see.  LOL
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