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The Moo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The Moo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Icon Class Association
    Posted: 05 Apr 14 at 8:03pm
Is a Commode being an active member of another club good form? It happened at our club way back when and didn't go down well with the general membership.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 14 at 9:02pm
Sailing was fun! Lightnings and British Moths race training. Open tomorrow, weather allowing.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Blue One View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Blue One Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 14 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by The Moo

Is a Commode being an active member of another club good form? It happened at our club way back when and didn't go down well with the general membership.

The difference is grf is a sailing God and both clubs feel honoured that he lowers himself to sail at both clubs.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 14 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Bolt it straight and bin the blocks n string or get a proper spinnaker  LOL Wink LOL Wink


I'm busy filing my wing wang with afterburner patent application.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 14 at 9:44pm
Originally posted by Blue One


Originally posted by The Moo

Is a Commode being an active member of another club good form? It happened at our club way back when and didn't go down well with the general membership.

The difference is grf is a sailing Deity and both clubs feel honoured that he lowers himself to sail at both clubs.


ftfy God is such a single religion term and I am all things to all people..
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 14 at 11:25pm
Whew! that's all right then.....I am not alone.
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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 14 at 5:37pm

(BT have just repaired our phone/web connection so here we go .. a little late)

Should builders be given carte blanche to set yardsticks for their own products? ...


Absolutely Not - We don't really want to have anything to do with yardstick setting !  Surprised ? 

We are damned if the speed of our craft is ‘exaggerated to promote sales ’ on one hand and damned if we err the other way and place a ‘bandit’ estimate on the craft .. again the casual assumption of some … to promote sales of course.   I have stated in the past and repeat it now … we don’t really want to get involved.

So then why do builders get involved at all then ?   Because nobody ‘official’ wants to do it either.  It is perhaps a potential hot potato for ‘them’ as well of course for all sorts of reasons.

When we race boats to find out how boats compare at the latter stages of development we state our honest beliefs at that time as do the majority of other suppliers.   We can only state our belief of where we think the long term average will end up compared to other classes and for the average crew.  If the class comparisons to hand are not sailed to their potential (or above it) or they are subject to changes themselves over time any relative measure can change.    

For the record we hoped Icon would be as fast as a decent Phantom in lighter winds inland and maybe as fast as a Blaze in a ‘Blaze breeze’ on the sea.     

Most involved in racing dinghy development and early testing  generally do know what they are doing and it should  hardly be a surprise if they can also ‘beat’ any long term handicap.  But in the end a whole 50% of any emerging new class fleet should be able to do exactly the same … and the other 50% will not be able to do so.  Handicaps are just averages …   

There is no easy way under the traditional PN system to build reliable handicap numbers quickly… it is best long winded and liable to flip/flop around with small sample sizes – the ‘low confidence ’ statement.    The current ‘experimental official’ number for Icon of 969 is not impossible in atypical circumstances and on rare occasion for any crew   .. It is just extremely unlikely as any sort of reliable average number for average crews but real life is like that.  Numerical returns for Icon are very low and you would find that just a couple of boats make up something 70+%  of the individual race results.  Small numbers and many clubs not putting in returns at all are the obvious causes. 

The Sailjuice/GL system is different.  These numbers can vary considerably from the ’traditional’ ones and in our experience are producing very good ‘level’ racing.  Their numbers compare large numbers of different classes on the same courses at the same time each winter.  Pitting arguably better racers from many classes directly against each other seems to produce quite different handicap numbers for a number of classes.   In fact you could even think a quiet revolution has already occurred when the clear majority of the ‘major’ handicap events from the QMSC ‘Bloody Mary’ down now use factored numbers.     Now they are adding a summer series of events you will soon be able to race under the GL handicap system year round if you wished to do so.

This is attractive to smaller classes particularly the new ones who obviously need good racing as quickly as possible.  The obvious side benefit is that the GL handicap numbers should prove more reliable .. and critically establish them much more quickly.  The methodology is not perfect either but goes a considerable way to netting out the ‘complex’ effects of crew ability and location as the assumptions on fleet composition and quality are quite different .  The Laser for example is much more competitive under the GL system with its adjusted number but has hardly become any sort of bandit.

Anyway we don’t expect too much sympathy from anyone  .... and particularly on this forum !    Put simply a well sailed Icon will not, of course, beat well sailed competitive Merlins, Fireballs and what have you on the vast majority of occasions.     The front of those fleets rarely ever make major mistakes….  In Icon we can only challenge these classes at all if we get it near 100% right (ie not necessarily that often) and they drop a few bricks here and there around the course!    

Handicap racing has evolved a long long way since the days when ‘all the good crews’ raced solely within their fleets and ‘handicap’ was for that occasional ‘menagerie’ largely social racing for the ‘other craft’ from  the back of the local dinghy compound.   This form of racing has grown enormously in the last few decades but arguably with the exception of the GL approach the handicap system is still essentially the same as it always was..   It does do what is says on the can – it measures local club results mainly and intentionally does not attempt to tackle ‘complex’ factors.   That is the strength of the approach .... and equally its weakness.

We are loaning several Icons out this season and attending a few ‘invitations’ to clubs – if you want us to appear with a few boats at your favorite club just ask us or better still the Icon CA.   If we can then fit you to the loan programme you could be lent a boat for a month so you can get a broader view of the boat .   Go get some local results in an Icon, have some fun, and give us poor souls a break !   

Mike L.

PS – Might be good to organize another BT line failure – you can get so much more done !    



Edited by blaze720 - 07 Apr 14 at 8:49pm
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Time Lord View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Time Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 14 at 6:13pm
Who let this poster on here? His post directly relates to the topic and is even sensible in parts!

Hopefully BT will act to permanently 'fix' his line soon.
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craiggo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 14 at 7:22pm
Mike any chance of a demo boat at Thornbury SC Aug 2-10th?
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chrisg View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote chrisg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 14 at 8:17am
@ Mike L

The Great Lakes isn't a "quiet revolution", they are merely using the system as intended, making adjustments where they see the national numbers need amending to suit their "handicap to the potential of the boat on big open flat water" scheme. For what its worth, there is more finger in the air involved in setting the Great Lakes numbers than the national ones, admittedly this is becoming less and less as they get more data but still happens for new classes.

To say "nobody official" wants to set a number for a new class is far from the truth as well. The PYAG are happy to set numbers for any class where the data shows enough returns. We made a conscious decision to make exceptions for new classes, and release experimental numbers to try to help the clubs set numbers if new classes turn up to race on their water. We can only do this once we see some returns, hence the slight lag, but hopefully everyone can agree the lag has reduced substantailly in the last few years and the PY system is becoming more reactive. 

It's no secret that EN's are based on less data. The blurb on the national list even says "Experimental numbers are based on fewer returns and are to be used as a guide for clubs to allocate a starting number for either new or development classes. Any number issued by a club should be reviewed and adjusted where necessary at the clubs discretion". 

I'll ask the PYAG to review the EN's in May/June time, and will find out if any other classes warrant adding to the EN list at the same time.


Edited by chrisg - 08 Apr 14 at 8:22am
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