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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 19 Mar 14 at 11:26am
I've been confused by this thread from time to time. It seems to drift between 'what the rules/guidance currently are' and 'what the rules/guidance ought to be changed to', with the occasional deviation into 'how many angels does it take to cause damage to a pin when they are dancing on it'...
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 14 at 1:37pm
I thought it was focusing pretty successfully on 'serious damage'.

Case 19 is about what is and is not 'damage', which is important for rule 14( b ).

'Serious damage' is important for rules 44.1( b ), and 60.3( a )(1).

Gordon proposed a list of types of serious damage.  I think this is an approach that the drafters of the Cases and the Judges Manual are carefully avoiding.

I have found this thread remarkably constructive and helpful.
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 14 at 2:34pm
The starting point was a question:

When is damage so serious that a boat cannot take a 2 turn penalty on the water and should retire?

This question arose because I have been involved in discussions, including in the course of protest hearings,  on this very point.

There are considerable differences in evaluation of what constitutes serious damage. The point of asking the question is that the guidance in the Case Book and the IJ Manual do not seem to have acheived their purpose of establishing anything approaching consistency in protest decisions.

Constantly repeating the terms of the sparse interpretations available in ISAF texts does not answer the question, because we have established that these texts have failed in that they are understood in very different ways. Evidently, judges and competitors need further discussion of this question

Personally, as you can see by the examples of serious damage I have presented here I have a somewhat severe idea of what constitutes serious damage, n that I tend to set the bar quite  low.

The discussion has also wandered on to the other mentions of damage in the rules:

- when does damage prevent a boat from being exonerated from not avoiding contact
- when does damage make a boat's race score significantly worse.
Gordon
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 14 at 3:24pm
This does seem like one of those areas when you can look at something and say "Serious damage", but it is much harder to define it without resorting to examples.

I've been enjoying this thread - I've been confused at times, and disagreed at others, but it seems the same applies to our judges, too, so I don't feel too stupid!
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 14 at 10:49pm
Originally posted by gordon

... t the guidance in the Case Book and the IJ Manual do not seem to have acheived their purpose of establishing anything approaching consistency in protest decisions.

... we have established that these texts have failed in that they are understood in very different ways. Evidently, judges and competitors need further discussion of this question.
While, as I have said, I have found this discussion very useful, and while some judges may desire more intellectually satisfactory guidance, I don't agree that 'competitors need further discussion of this question'.

If competitors wanted further discussion, there would be Appeals and Cases about serious damage. There are not.  Most Cases and Appeals merely mention 'serious damage' in reciting or referring to the provisions of rule 44.1( b ), or 60,3( a )(1).  Cases and Appeals mentioning serious damage are as follows:
  • ISAF Cases, 99, 107, 108:  none addressing the meaning or interpretation of 'serious damage'.
  • RYA Appeals, Some 10 Appeals mentioning 'serious damage', 7 do not address the meaning or interpretation of 'serious damage', 2 Appeals (2002/11 and 2008/5) make very marginal allusions, which do not contribute much and Appeal 2001/3, which dismissed the wholly unmeritorious  contention that 'cost of repairs alone did not constitute serious damage if a boat was unable to continue racing'
  • US Sailing Appeals, one Appeal, Appeal 51, not addressing the meaning or interpretation of 'serious damage'.
  • Sail Canada Appeals, Appeals 55 and 101 not addressing the meaning or interpretation of 'serious damage', and Appeal 24, indicating briefly that dismasting was [obviously] serious damage.
  • Australian Appelas, not published, but I can't recall any addressing serious damage.
Bottom line is that the understanding of 'serious damage' is not a problem for competitors.

If its a problem for judges (or some judges), but not for competitors, I think we should be very cautious about pushing for new cases.


Edited by Brass - 19 Mar 14 at 10:58pm
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 14 at 11:29am
Originally posted by gordon

Constantly repeating the terms of the sparse interpretations available in ISAF texts does not answer the question, because we have established that these texts have failed in that they are understood in very different ways. Evidently, judges and competitors need further discussion of this question

Personally, as you can see by the examples of serious damage I have presented here I have a somewhat severe idea of what constitutes serious damage, n that I tend to set the bar quite  low.

I was posting with my phone - just noting that the manual and case 19 are similar (to the extent that it renders both/either less useful? or even meaningless?) 

I think that the bar in 19 is far too high. Personally, I reckon damage is anything that needs to be repaired. 
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 14 at 11:44am
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

 
I think that the bar in 19 is far too high. Personally, I reckon damage is anything that needs to be repaired. 

I agree but the question is at what point does this damage become bad enough that a boat cannot exonerate herself by doing turns.

If I had a collision and the gelcoat was damaged then I would say a 2 turn penalty is enough for the offending boat at the time.

If the damage is any worse (i.e. a hole in the hull, damage to any control fittings rendering them inoperable or damage to any sails) then I would say that a 2 turn penalty is not enough and the offending boat should retire or be DSQ.

That is my personal view.

It seems this is more of a judgement call and each case should be dealt with individually. Let us not forget that for most insurance claims when racing they will want a protest to have been heard to help them establish liability.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 14 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Presuming Ed

 
... just noting that the manual and case 19 are similar (to the extent that it renders both/either less useful? or even meaningless?) 

I think that the bar in 19 is far too high. Personally, I reckon damage is anything that needs to be repaired. 

Case 19 does not address serious damage at all: it's all about the bottom threshold.

Looking at Case 19, what I think it is trying to do is to set a lower threshold, below which scratches and chips and so on should NOT be considered to be damage (essentially for purposes of rule 14( b )).  Hence Case 19 introduces the criteria of diminution of market value and diminution of function.

What Case 19 is pointing towards, without quite saying it, is that if there is no diminution in value and no diminution in function or performance, then there is no damage.  I have no difficulty with this.

I don't think Case 19 rules out damage that needs to be repaired.

What it does do, is rule out extravagant claims that a scratch that really would buff out requires massive repair work.

I agree but the question is at what point does this damage become bad enough that a boat cannot exonerate herself by doing turns.

Now you are coming back to serious damage.

If I had a collision and the gelcoat was damaged then I would say a 2 turn penalty is enough for the offending boat at the time.

That's fine for your beat-up 20 year old laser, where it would just be one among many 'honourable wounds'.

Different for somebody's beautifully restored mahogany pride and joy, where the same sized ding would have a significant effect on value between perfectly restored, and now, visibly blemished.

I don't have any difficulty with any seeming inconsistency here.  That's precisely what the reference to market value in Case 19 allows.

If the damage is any worse (i.e. a hole in the hull, damage to any control fittings rendering them inoperable or damage to any sails) then I would say that a 2 turn penalty is not enough and the offending boat should retire or be DSQ.

Now you are trying to do the very thing that I think Case 19 and the Judges Manual are trying to avoid:  institute a catalogue of damages, instead of applying the two criteria shown in JM M3:  diminution in value and impairment in performance.

That is my personal view.

It seems this is more of a judgement call and each case should be dealt with individually.

Couldn't agree more.
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 14 at 8:49pm
Originally posted by Brass

What Case 19 is pointing towards, without quite saying it, is that if there is no diminution in value and no diminution in function or performance, then there is no damage.  I have no difficulty with this. 

I have a considerable problem with that. 

One class I sometimes sail are a local keelboat class, where most boats are of some vintage (20/30 years). Value of hulls is limited - selling costs approximately equate to 1 year's running costs - some thousands of pounds.  

A chunk out of the gelcoat is a couple of hours work. Say £100 yard fees. The yard has the relevant tools, equipment, gelcoat etc, plus easy weektime access to the boats - kept on swinging moorings. 

Such a chunk will have no effective diminution in value, function or performance, but would count as damage in my book. 

IME, at most match or team racing regatta, the first line of the briefing tends to be "Sailing is a NON CONTACT SPORT", delivered by chump in his most stentorian tones. I don't think that taking chunks out of people in fleet racing is legit, even if they are small.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 14 at 9:10pm
I'm not trying to force you to arrive at the place where I think case 19 is 'pointing'.

I certainly wouldn't condone a culture that says 'your old boat is so old and untidy that it doesn't merit consideration under the rules', but likewise I'm not keen on protest committees examining the gunwales of lasers with magnifying glasses to detect 'damage' so as to 'stop them playing bumper boats'.

As Jeffers and others have said, this is a matter for discretion and judgement.  I wholeheartedly agree with that.

I would expect a protest committee to be appropriately influenced by the culture and values of the club.

Maybe what is getting up Gordon's nose is classes consisting of wealthy and pretentious owners, who assert that damage worth thousands is not, in terms of their bank-balances, 'serious'.


Edited by Brass - 20 Mar 14 at 9:43pm
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