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Time Lord View Drop Down
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Posts: 301 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Time Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: PY Lag Time
    Posted: 14 Mar 14 at 9:45am
For Pinky's information, the Merlin Rocket is a restricted class not a development class - look up the difference before you pontificate.

Also your old Laser comparison does not hold water. We are not talking about minor tweaks to kickers and tillers but total differences in the hull shape. The old Laser hull is still the same shape as the new Laser hull.

As for iGRF, he seems to be advocating prohibition and we know what that did to the USA!
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 14 at 10:00am
Plus, with regards to the Merlin, more of the more modern designs are filtering their way in to club racing now.

There is a guy at our club who has an early Cant Tales hull. We have left him on 1014 I seem to recall as it seems about right for the boat (given he is a front of the fleet sailor).
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Time Lord View Drop Down
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Posts: 301 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Time Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 14 at 10:18am
Sound about Ok for a Tales especially on your sort of water and the type of round the cans courses that you probably set.
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 14 at 10:22am
I was going to comment on Jim's evolution thread that control systems might be more significant than simply changing a mast to carbon.
When I started racing, most boats had 3:1 kickers and aft sheeting.
An old Merlin will have been built to take little rig tension and won't sail in strong winds with lots of kicker.
So it will be much harder to sail.
The spinnaker equipment will be much slower to use.
Ball bearing pulleys that make adjustable sheeting and so forth actually work.
Twin poles and Spiro's have changed the game in many classes.
Rig tension adjustment that works, raking systems.
But I think most of these things started to creep in before Jim's timescale?
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Posts: 90 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Punky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 14 at 10:41am
Thank you Dr, I know the difference, but I don't like typing that word on this computer.  The hull shape rules for the Merlin haven't changed in yonks, it is just designs getting better.  Therefore it is not much different to playing with tolerances on Fireballs, Streakers etc.  Should narrow bow 'balls get a PY boost?  If a new Merlin design proves quicker than the others, should the others be given a 10 point benefit? Of course not - you need to buy the fast one if you want to win. I know that is expensive, but that is the game you play when you sail a r*stricted class.    
 
Thera are many more aspects to a fast boat than the hull shape.  What if your sails are 5 years old? 
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 14 at 11:05am
Originally posted by Punky

..... you need to buy the fast one if you want to win. I know that is expensive, but that is the game you play when you sail a r*stricted class.    
 .....


I see the point of PY is rather lost here.
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Punky View Drop Down
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Posts: 90 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Punky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 14 at 11:37am
Eh?  PY isn't supposed to to compensate for shortcomings in individual boats, instead it allows classes to race against each other.  Interclass not intraclass.
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rogerd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1076 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 14 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by Punky

Of course the vast majority of 'serious' Merlin racers have a 'modern' boat.  But plenty of them only race class events.  Many, many PY returns are based on middle aged boats. It stands to reason that if old boats are slower than the average (on which the PY is based), modern boats must be faster.
 
 
 
The vast majority of serious Merlin racers have a modern boat. Unless of course you race on the Thames where the early hull shapes suit the water. Jack Holt was influential in the  design of the first Merlin and where was she sailed? The Thames a restricted water. Now assume all those nice old hulls are entering handicap races on the Thames and those returns are being entered. Thats fine but those nice old hull shapes have been strenthened to take modern rigs with carbon masts and laminate sails and larger spinakers etc and raced hard. I think it is right that if you are going to sail to win you have the boat and the kit to suit where you are going to sail but it does mean in this case that the PY returns are not of middle aged boats or average they are state of the art boats for that piece of water. There are now "river designs" Merlins being built new.
Great for the Merlin fleet it has revived the boats that were rotting away unloved and but it does beg the question when those boats are sailed to an advantagious handicap ie Merlin fleet recomended age related handicap if this is not actually skewing the results somewhat.
But hey I only own knackered old boats that are way outclassed but they are cheap and lovely to look at and we all know handicap racing is a bit of a lottery. Albeit a lottery the same people seem to win week after week.
 
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 14 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by Punky

Eh?  PY isn't supposed to to compensate for shortcomings in individual boats, instead it allows classes to race against each other.  Interclass not intraclass.


I think that hits the nail on the head rather nicely.

If clubs/user groups want to use the system to allow older boats in a class (whether it be a low rider Moth, Merlin or Classic Ent) to get a fair race, then it is up to them. However, as all the above examples will be pretty much one-offs, and another club's Lowrider, Merlin or Ent may also be classic, but of a different speed, it is difficult to see how firm numbers can be put on things. CAs can provide guidelines, but the PYAG really can't be expected to publish them alongside their numbers.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 14 at 12:51pm
Does anyone on here actually ever get beaten by a vintage merlin and feel they've been done over, or is this a purely theological objection?


As I see it PY should aim to accommodate al boats, intra-class, inter-class or no class.
It would be sensible for classes like the Cherub, I14, Imoth to have age related numbers too. But I doubt there is the data to support it or the number of people racing to demand it.
I'm a great believer in inclusive racing, if someone wants to race say a GP14 singlehanded, then a bit of guidance for the handicapper can only be a good thing.
The issuer of whether older boats should get an allowance for wear and tear, as opposed to design progress is a different question. I can see both sides of that one. A clapped out floppy GRP boat is not going to keep up, but I've not heard of any clubs addressing that succesfully?
As for allowances for tired sails, that's a minefield, as lots of club racers keep their best sails for nice days and open meetings.
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