PY Lag Time

Originally posted by RS400atC Personally, I'd like to see all the data freely available.

Couldn't agree more, I'm not involved in submitting our clubs data so I'm not sure what is available online, but if you don't let folks see the data and what you've done with it then don't expect them to accept the results you churn out, secrecy breeds mistrust.

Originally posted by RS400atC I think much of it ran out of statistical soundness a long time ago.

As above if we don't see the data and what has been done to it then we also don't know how significant the results are, the fact that the data churns out results for classes with a few 100 races submitted and puts the result alongside a class with 45.000 races submitted would suggest there is little significance statistically.

None of this is meant as a criticism of what the PY Group do, they can only work with what they have, but please give people some credit and give us some background, we all understand there are shortcomings, and we're all just keen to understand more.

Recommending higher numbers for old Merlin's is having your cake and eating it. At the very least the class should be recommending a lower than RYA-calculated number for new boats, after all the RYA number is basically an average of the old and new.

Originally posted by patj The issues with Merlins come when an old hull has a modern rig added and then claims the old boat handicap and entry into vintage events - rather like putting a modern mini engine in an old mini and claiming to be equal to the original minis - would they allow it?

Yep, PatJ and I, along with Ed (see the capsized IC in the advent calendar thread), Roger and others have spent the last decade figuring out what changes do what to speed in classic boats.

The answer? It is all educated guessing. Whilst cotton sails and a wooden mast are certainly worth 60-80 points in the modern handicap system, it is the manner in which th boats are sailed that makes the biggest difference. A late 1940's Merlin, complete with all the original kit, needs to be nursed round the course - go too gungho in a bit of breeze and you end up with sprung planks, torn sails or a broken mast. The boat is a piece of the past, being sailed in a gentle manner.
Pick another Merlin - maybe one from just 5 years later, when glued construction has come in, and hull shapes have become a little more powerful. When the boat first came out - say in 1953, rather than 1948 (a fleabite of time compared to 2014) its rig would have been very similar to the first boat. However, this boat has been updated, rebuilt, strengthened, lightened, new foils put on, and a carbon rig and modern sails. Now, I think this is a great thing to do - you are producing a wonderfully quick river boat. However, the expectation as to how the boat is to be sailed has changed totally. It will be pushed hard - it has had all the work done in order for it to still win races in specific conditions.

The normal handicap system cannot tell the difference between the 2 boats - the PYAG will get a data back showing 2 boats and elapsed time. Any average will not reflect either boat. With the limited numbers at cvrda events, we are able to make the judgements based on the individual boats. This is one reason we use the old 2 or 3 figure system - our numbers really aren't translatable into the main system.

Of course the vast majority of 'serious' Merlin racers have a 'modern' boat.  But plenty of them only race class events.  Many, many PY returns are based on middle aged boats. It stands to reason that if old boats are slower than the average (on which the PY is based), modern boats must be faster. Why should they get a boost at a club handicap race?  IMHO if a boat is outdated it shouldn't expect an equal chance. There are way too many permutaions to consider.  Should old Lasers be given a boost?  What about modern lasers without an xd kit? What about modern lasers with an XD kit but not a low profile tiller?