PY Lag Time

Is it possible to get the data for other clubs as well as your own? If so, being able to compare suggested PYs with other clubs with similar water would reduce the amount crew skill factor takes over the results on a small sample.

rupert,  why not contact the other clubs that you think would have similar data and ask them for it?  im sure they'd also be interested in yours.

Personally, I'd like to see all the data freely available.

That way anyone who feels his class has  the wrong PY can perform his own analysis, taking data from what he considers comparable clubs, to make a case for changes at his club.

But loose groups of 'pond clubs' 'lake clubs' 'river clubs' 'estuary clubs' and 'sea clubs' might be helpful to the person who has a minority boat.

But is there a bigger difference between winds that people sail in among clubs on similar sized water?
I guess there is a case for analysing the data by how windy different months were.
Are the changes in the classes more to do with weather than development?

Making the data open would allow interested people to focus on a few comparable classes to gain some insight.

Originally posted by Rupert There are certainly "windy years" - I'm sure they have come up on here before, discussing whether they mean the PY system is reactive to weather conditions that are past. Maybe you can see times when classes with small sails drop on handicap more than those with larger sails? Which is better in a blow, a Solo or a Streaker? Both are better than a Lightning, maybe - does that explain those 3 changes? Have we had a windy year? Maybe we need to take altitude into account when looking at clubs, too, and the number of trees round the lake? All in all, I think we might run out of statistical significance before any of the above could be proved one way or the other, but it is good to ponder over.

I think much of it ran out of statistical soundness a long time ago.
The good old days of most of the boats being a lot more similar was a much better proposition.

It would interest me to test the modern data against the old, for instance erasing all the boats that were not say Ents, Grads, Solos, GP14s and Fireflies.
In recent years, you could analyse only say RS400, RS500, L4k, Buzz
Then add in Merlins perhaps and see if that changes anything.

The good news is I'm hoping to skive off work tomorow and go sailing.

Originally posted by rb_stretch I have yet to hear of a class that offers a quicker PY than the RYA number. Is that what the N12s do? For example the Merlin's publish how much to add to the PY number for progressively older boats, but that ignores the fact that the RYA PY is an average, not the top end. We do have older Merlin's at our club but are struggling to figure what PY we should give them because of crew skill factors and the fact that the class numbers are suspect. Not picking on Merlin's as they are giving it a go unlike many other classes.

This is what the National 12 association suggest as alternatives for older boats in Club events: -

Sail number range    Approx year range     Recommended Handicap PY
0001-1599              1936-1958                   1170
1600-2511              1958-1970                   1145
2512-3140              1970-1980                   1130
3141-3271              1981-1987                   1115
3272-3414              1988-1995                   1104
3415+                    1996+                         1068

If I still had my first N12 (2964)and approached my Club to sail off 1130 (which is the same as a GP) I would expect to be told to go forth and multiply and be advised not to invest in a bigger trophy cabinet! It used to fly on our shifty little puddle particularly in the light stuff.

Fast forward 30 plus years and I think the Association might have to think about recommending a handicap for the 1996 to pre Dead Cat Bounce winged rudder boats which are struggling on 1068.

I believe the above handicaps are based on the boats not being updated but I could be wrong. In practice some of the older boats have been tricked up with modern rigs (carbon spars, laminated sails, jib poles) and their hulls have been smoothed (de-keeled) and wing rudders have been retrofitted, so it is an absolute minefield.

I certainly will struggle even more to compete in my 2004 boat but I don't envisage ever asking for a modification to PY unless the Club started tinkering with all the other boats which is unlikely.

Fair play to the Association for trying though.