Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
![]() |
Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
![]() |
List classes of boat for sale |
serious damage |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page <12345 7> |
Author | |
Rupert ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 2:46pm |
Really? If someone put their bowsprit straight through me, I would certainly expect them to retire. |
|
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
|
|
![]() |
|
JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6661 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Umm, I think you're stretching it there. A proper repair on something like that, especially if it involves gel coat, I think ought to be in the serious category. |
|
![]() |
|
Presuming Ed ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 26 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 641 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
By buffing out, I'm referring to those situation where you've literally swapped paint. Bit of elbow grease, squirt of deck cleaner, apply sponge et voila, all shiny again. In those situations, where the existance or not of damage is relevant to 14, then it's OK to find after the race that it really is a case of a quick clean (so while14 might apply, the RoW boat will be exonerated). To me, a repair should take you pretty close to status quo ante. A hole means laminating. I'm no great shakes with the resin pot, but I would think that most people view it as non-trivial when they start cutting cloth and mixing resin and hardner. |
|
![]() |
|
gordon ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
We are now arriving at the heart of the debate.
One point - rule 14 does not qualify damage - any damage will do to prevent RoW boat from being exonerated. If the reply to the question "was there any damage? is "Yes -but only a scratch" then according to the rule the RoW cannot be exonerated. My latest thinking on this is as follows:
To resume: a prudent owner can accept that in the course of racing his boat will suffer minor damage and will depreciate in value. However, no prudent owner can accept that breaking boats to the extent that considerable time and expense is required to make good damage is a normal part of racing. The Racing Rules of Sailing have been written, and should be applied, so that sailing remains a non-contact sport, and that the penalty for causing serious damage, as defined above, is to retire from the race. |
|
Gordon
|
|
![]() |
|
Brass ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Thank you, Rupert, Gordon, Ed and Jim.
I'm now convinced that a hole in the hull is serious damage, no matter what. I'm also coming round on scratches and chips. Looking at Case 19, what I think it is trying to do is to set a lower threshold, below which scratches and chips and so on should NOT be considered to be damage (essentially for purposes of rule 14( b )). Hence Case 19 introduces the criteria of diminution of market value and diminution of function. What Case 19 is pointing towards, without quite saying it, is that if there is no diminution in value and no diminution in function or performance, then there is no damage. I have no difficulty with this. Case 19 does not address serious damage at all: it's all about the bottom threshold. What Case 19 and the JM Section M are trying to avoid is stating fixed money values, and embarking on a technical catalogue of what does or does not make the grade.
|
|
![]() |
|
Brass ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Surely nobody is saying that without qualification? There is not the slightest suggestion in JM section M that inability to finish a race is a requirement for serious damage. That was the line of argument that was run and rejected in RYA Appeal 2001/3, which I see is also the source of the 'prudent owner' terminology. Surely no-one is saying that a gaping hole, high in the topsides, so that a boat could sail safely under easy trim, but could not power up on one tack, is not 'seriously impaired performance', and therefore, in terms of JM section M3, 'serious damage'? I don't really think that the 'prudent owner would repair' notion is all that helpful: anything that a prudent owner would repair must surely diminish either functinoality or value, and therefore the critieria in Case 19 and JM section M will do the job.
|
|
![]() |
|
Brass ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Does this flowchart, based solely on JM section M help?
![]() |
|
![]() |
|
Brass ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
As I have indicated, my opinion is that we are best served by sticking within the parameters of JM Section M, namely diminution of market value and diminution of functionality and performance. Critically, the reliance on market value implies that seriousness of money costs should be considered proportionately to the value of the boats concerned.
|
|
![]() |
|
gordon ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Firstly - the IJ Manual criteria seem not to be working, if they were I would not have asked the initial question. I was at the same event 2 years running - with different juries. Similar damage was considered "serious" one year and not the other.
The problem appears to be that some competitors and some judges are behaving as though breaking boats was a normal part of sailing. The fact that the rules include measures to deal with such a situation does not mean that the situations is a normal part of sailing, and that they should be accepted or tolerate. In the same way rule 69 exists to deal with behaviour that is unacceptable and should not be tolerated. The insurance question is an attempt to put some kind of monetary value on the extent of damage. How do you estimate if the market value has been significantly or seriously diminished. The excess can be seen as an estimate (for that particular type of boat) by a well informed third party of the extent of damage that can be paid for out of the owners wallet! A useful guideline - but only a guideline. Lifelines and stanchions - if safety regulations requiring these to be in place are rules in the race (see SIs) then any damage to lifelines or stanchions so that that they no longer meet the requirements of the regulations means that the boat cannot sail on without breaking a rule and should retire. This constitutes serious damage. On rigs - damage to carbon rigs may appear minor but seriously endanger the rig if not repaired. I am not an expert, neither are most owners. If a rigger is available I would ask his advice. I have more experience with carbon fibre fishing rods - which will often break some time after an incident at the point of impact. A tiny flaw, due to the impact, is the source of the break. On sails - some classes have strict limits on number of sails that boats may own. The owner cannot have spare sails to replace the broken sail. In this case any damage that required more than tape, will have to be repaired immediately, presumably by sewing, before the boat races again. Seems serious to me. If a sail was lashed to the deck was it not there to be used during the race? Surely a prudent owner stows his spare sails in a safer place? Your case would be an interesting hearing. The case of a scratch deep enough to weaken the laminate under the gelcoat - when does it become "serious damage"? Opinions seem to vary widely - from "never" to "always". For me it depends on the amount of work to make good and restore the functionality and the value of the boat. 3 hours work, or calling on the insurance, seem to point to the damage being serious. |
|
Gordon
|
|
![]() |
|
JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6661 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
One thought. Is water ingress a factor to consider? If water can get places it shouldn't, eg through a hole into the boat, or even through the outer skin into the core, should that always be considered serious damage?
I quite like the thought that any damage that puts the boat outside class rules or other event requirements (offshore category for instance) must be intrinsically serious. Edited by JimC - 07 Mar 14 at 8:56am |
|
![]() |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page <12345 7> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions ![]() You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |