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Brass View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 10:15pm
Originally posted by gordon

...  there does seem to be some reticence to define serious damage, and there are certainly wildly different appreciations of what constitutes serious damage.

Hence my question to this community.

Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Difficulty is that serious damage might not be immediatley obvious. One the other day when there was a coming together that the umpires didn't think was particularly hard. One boat was given a penalty (team racing). 

Immediate estimate made after the race was a couple of grand to repair. Boat couldn't race again during the event. 

I don't think the immediate (on-water) perception of seriousness of damage is that much of a problem.
  • It's irrelevant in MR or TR because rule 44.1( b ) is deleted by rules C7.1 and D1.3( a ) respectively;
  • In fleet racing, what will get a boat disqualified is a protest for a breach of the underlying Part 2 rule (RYA Appeal 1981/7):  this is in the hands of the protesting boat:  by the time she comes ashore and considers delivering a written protest, she will be in a position to have a pretty fair idea whether she considers the damage to be serious or not.  Except for the fact of sailing on when she 'should' have retired, it makes no difference to the protestee.
I understand Gordon's point.  I've heard a party in a protest say that the damage wouldn't cost more than two or three grand to fix and therefore wasn't serious.

I think it is pretentious and ridiculous to assert that damage costing several thousand dollars, pounds or euros is 'not serious'.

On the other hand, 'seriousness' of damage can, quite sensibly be related to the value of the boats, and Judges Manual M2 and M3 references to diminution of market value, is quite a clever way of taking this into consideration.

The MR 'matrices' refer to man(pc 'person') hours to repair, in order to avoid disparities in the value of work-time in various parts of the world.
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craiggo View Drop Down
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Posts: 1810 		Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 11:52pm
At an RS600 nationals at Mounts Bay, back in the day. I had a crap first upwind leg, and to top it off got caught in irons tacking onto starboard at the mark and then drifted onto it. While stuck in irons and attached to the mark a fellow competitor smashed into my bow with his leeward wing, punching a hole through the boat. After the incident I sailed like a man possessed and finished 6th. As I crossed the line Andy Peake called across to say I had a hole in the boat. I didn't believe him until several people also pointed at the damage, which I couldn't see from on the boat. After capsizing and swimming to the bow I saw the fist sized hole, tried to fix it but realized it wasn't happening and went ashore to repair it properly. Protest committee awarded me redress for the races missed while affecting repairs due to serious damage being caused. I guess the point is you can still get in a handy result with serious damage.

Edited by craiggo - 04 Mar 14 at 11:53pm
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Posts: 643 		Post Options Post Options   Quote patj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 6:50am
There's a lot here about the damage to boats and assessing its cost but don't forget damage to the crew. Any accident which injures a person such that they need first aid or medical treatment should be regarded as serious since life is far more precious than a boat and having to retire if you have caused any injury would emphasise the value of life.
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 8:57am
Originally posted by craiggo

a fellow competitor smashed into my bow with his leeward wing, punching a hole through the boat. After the incident I sailed like a man possessed and finished 6th. ..... I guess the point is you can still get in a handy result with serious damage.

Sounds like details of this incident might make an interesting contribution to the weight thread?  Smile
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 10:21am
A rule 44 penalty ceases to be the applicable penalty for a boat when it is known that the boat caused serious damage - which may well be after boats have finished, or even, for instance in the case of big boats, much later.
In this context there is little debate regarding injury - partly because most sailors will retire if they cause injury, partly because causing any injury excludes the possibility of taking a penalty at the time of an incident. It does not have to be serious injury.

This question arose because of a competitor feeling aggrieved because we had DSQ'd him for aking a hole in another boat (28ft keelboats). He felt that juries at other class events would not have considered the damage serious and felt that we were "harsh" in not accepting that his turns were not a sufficient penalty.
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 10:22am
Combining different texts I have come up with the following proposed guidelines.

I would appreciate your opinion:

Serious damage is any damage that seriously impairs the performance of a boat or her crew, or seriously diminishes the market value of the boat. Serious damage has occurred when the normal operation of the boat is compromised, and its structural integrity may be impaired. A prudent owner will repair serious damage promptly even though the boat may be able to continue to race, with or without temporary repairs. Repairs will generally require more than 3 hours work.


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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 11:50am
Try the marked changes.

Originally posted by gordon

Combining different texts I have come up with the following proposed guidelines.

I would appreciate your opinion:

Serious damage is any damage that seriously impairs the performance of a boat or her crew, or seriouslysignificantly diminishes the market value of the boat.

Serious damage has occurred when:

  • the normal operation of the boat ishas been compromised,
  • its structural integrity may have been impaired, and or
  • its hull integrity has been significantly breached.
Serious damage is damage that aA prudent owner will repair promptly even though the boat may be able to continue to race, with or without temporary repairs. Repairs will generally require more than 3 hours work.

So we have produced an elegant little paragraph.

Originally posted by gordon

This question arose because of a competitor feeling aggrieved because we had DSQ'd him for aking a hole in another boat (28ft keelboats). He felt that juries at other class events would not have considered the damage serious and felt that we were "harsh" in not accepting that his turns were not a sufficient penalty.

If this is the problem you are trying to solve, how does the 'definition' help?

Couldn't you just as well explain to the competitor that the protest committee considered the factors in Judges Manual M2 and M3 and concluded that the damage was serious?


Edited by Brass - 05 Mar 14 at 9:18pm
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 10:15am
The problem is that different protest committees (and even international juries) seem to have  widely different opinion on what constitutes serious damage. Some seem to think that damage costing several grand to repair is not serious if the boat can finish the race! Others, my self included, hold that a hole in a boat is serious damage Coming back to port with a hole in your boat should not be a normal part of sailing.
Gordon
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 11:10am
Entirely agree. Holes are serious. 

Buff out - not damage ("And rubbin, son, is racin'(*)'")
Gelcoat chip - damage
Hole - serious damage. 

*(Yes, I know that it isn't.)
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 2:08pm
If you can see what to buff out, how can you say it's not damage?  I'm happy that it might be trivial damage, that a protest committee should not take notice of (particularly for rule 14( b )), but I don't think you can make it disappear.

I think it would be possible for, say a nice, bowsprit-shaped hole, high in the topsides of a fibreglass boat, with no structural damage, in an accessible position, that would take no more than an hour or two to bog up would be short of serious
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