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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 8:57am
Originally posted by craiggo

a fellow competitor smashed into my bow with his leeward wing, punching a hole through the boat. After the incident I sailed like a man possessed and finished 6th. ..... I guess the point is you can still get in a handy result with serious damage.

Sounds like details of this incident might make an interesting contribution to the weight thread?  Smile
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Posts: 643 		Post Options Post Options   Quote patj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 6:50am
There's a lot here about the damage to boats and assessing its cost but don't forget damage to the crew. Any accident which injures a person such that they need first aid or medical treatment should be regarded as serious since life is far more precious than a boat and having to retire if you have caused any injury would emphasise the value of life.
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Posts: 1810 		Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 11:52pm
At an RS600 nationals at Mounts Bay, back in the day. I had a crap first upwind leg, and to top it off got caught in irons tacking onto starboard at the mark and then drifted onto it. While stuck in irons and attached to the mark a fellow competitor smashed into my bow with his leeward wing, punching a hole through the boat. After the incident I sailed like a man possessed and finished 6th. As I crossed the line Andy Peake called across to say I had a hole in the boat. I didn't believe him until several people also pointed at the damage, which I couldn't see from on the boat. After capsizing and swimming to the bow I saw the fist sized hole, tried to fix it but realized it wasn't happening and went ashore to repair it properly. Protest committee awarded me redress for the races missed while affecting repairs due to serious damage being caused. I guess the point is you can still get in a handy result with serious damage.

Edited by craiggo - 04 Mar 14 at 11:53pm
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 10:15pm
Originally posted by gordon

...  there does seem to be some reticence to define serious damage, and there are certainly wildly different appreciations of what constitutes serious damage.

Hence my question to this community.

Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Difficulty is that serious damage might not be immediatley obvious. One the other day when there was a coming together that the umpires didn't think was particularly hard. One boat was given a penalty (team racing). 

Immediate estimate made after the race was a couple of grand to repair. Boat couldn't race again during the event. 

I don't think the immediate (on-water) perception of seriousness of damage is that much of a problem.
  • It's irrelevant in MR or TR because rule 44.1( b ) is deleted by rules C7.1 and D1.3( a ) respectively;
  • In fleet racing, what will get a boat disqualified is a protest for a breach of the underlying Part 2 rule (RYA Appeal 1981/7):  this is in the hands of the protesting boat:  by the time she comes ashore and considers delivering a written protest, she will be in a position to have a pretty fair idea whether she considers the damage to be serious or not.  Except for the fact of sailing on when she 'should' have retired, it makes no difference to the protestee.
I understand Gordon's point.  I've heard a party in a protest say that the damage wouldn't cost more than two or three grand to fix and therefore wasn't serious.

I think it is pretentious and ridiculous to assert that damage costing several thousand dollars, pounds or euros is 'not serious'.

On the other hand, 'seriousness' of damage can, quite sensibly be related to the value of the boats, and Judges Manual M2 and M3 references to diminution of market value, is quite a clever way of taking this into consideration.

The MR 'matrices' refer to man(pc 'person') hours to repair, in order to avoid disparities in the value of work-time in various parts of the world.
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 4:14pm
Difficulty is that serious damange might not be immediatley obvious. One the other day when there was a coming together that the umpires didn't think was particularly hard. One boat was given a penalty (team racing). 

Immediate estimate made after the race was a couple of grand to repair. Boat couldn't race again during the event. 
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 3:56pm
Brass,

In order to grant redress damage does not have to be serious - it merely has to make a boat's race or series score significantly worse.

Your clam cleat damage is an excellent demonstration  - a broken clam cleat could (depending upon the class) significantly impair a boat's capacity to sail to her full potential and thus cause her score to be made significantly worse. She would thus be entitled to redress. However, the other boat could take a penalty on the water and this would be found to be the applicable penalty as she did not cause serious damage.

There are varying degrees of damage:

  • damage of any kind that can prevent a right-of-way boat's exoneration under rule 14;

  • damage that is sufficient to make a boat's race or series score significantly worse when considering redress (RRS 62.1(a))

  • damage that is serious enough to oblige a boat to retire rather than taking a penalty at the time of an incident (RRS 44.1(b));

  • damage so serious that a protest committee may protest a boat on the basis of a report from any source (RRS 60.3(a)(1)).

I think that these different usages have been carefuly thought out. However, there does seem to be some reticence to define serious damage, and there are certainly widldly different appreciations of what constitutes serios damage.


Hence my question to this community.
Gordon
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 2:20pm
I recently had a difficult protest committee hearing where a boat requested redress because her score had been made significantly worse by physical damage caused by a boat breaking a rule, but where the the boat said the damage was not serious, and she had not protested because the other boat had taken a penalty in accordance with rule 44.

We eventually decided that she was not entitled to redress because the boat's score, although made worse by the incident, was not made worse by the damage she suffered, which is the requirement of rule 62.1( b ).  In our discussions we were concerned about whether the requesting boat may have broken rule 14, but in the absence of evidence from the other boat were unable to reach any conclusion on this.

It would certainly be neater if the criterion for no on-water penalty and for redress was the same, which would be 'serious damage'.  Bearing in mind that a boat taking a penalty or retiring is NOT conclusive evidence that she broke a rule, and the desirability of resolving whether or not rule 14 was broken, it would be nice to have consideration of redress under rule 62.1( b ) supported by the conclusions of a protest hearing.

There is an attraction in the notion that if a boat causes damage that is serious enough to make a boat's performance, and hence her score in a race, significantly worse it should be regarded as 'serious damage'.

In answer to this, consider the (possibly somewhat artificial) situation where the only damage caused was to break off one cam of a jib cam-cleat, total cost about one dollar.  This would be very likely to make a boat's performance and result worse, but, absent some definition or other form of words in the rules it would be difficult to support a case that, on the ordinary english or nautical use of the word, this damage was 'serious'.

Of course, the case might also occur where an expensively furnished and fitted, but sturdy yacht suffered considerable damage above the waterline, but that was not structural or did not otherwise impair her racing performance.  You wouldn't want to rule out 'serious damage' just because it didn't rise to the level required for the grant of redress.

Damage is adressed in the RRS, the Case Book, the Judges Manual, and in Match Racing.

References to these sources is shown below

RRS
The word 'damage' appears in the rules as follows:
  • rule 14( b ) exoneration for contact:  damage  without any adjective or injury;
  • rule 44.1( b ) on-water penalties not applicable:  injury or serious damage;
  • rule 60.3 (and 63.5) protest by a protest committee:  injury or serious damage;
  • rule 61.1( a ) protest hail and flag not required:  damage or injury that is obvious to both boats;
  • rule 62.1( b ) grounds for redress:  injury or physical damage that makes a boat's score significantly worse;
  • rule 64.3 measurement relaxation:  damage that caused deviation ...
I don' think these differences are carefully considered intentional differences in shades of meaning:  I think it's just the particular development of individual rules in an uncoordinated way (except for the link-up between rules 44.1 ( b ), 60.3 and 63.5)

Cases

Case 19 contains a somewhat unilluminating interpretation of the term 'damage', and Case 110 tell s us that 'injury' refers only to bodily injury to a person, and ‘damage’ is limited to physical damage to a boat or her equipment [excluding psychological injury or psychic damage].

Judges Manual

The Judges Manual, Section M discusses damage as follows

M.2 Damage
There is no definition of exactly what constitutes damage; however ISAF Case 19
provides two examples to enable judges to ask questions to establish damage.
• was the current market value of any part of the boat, or of the boat as a whole, diminished?
• was an item or equipment made less functional?

M.3 Serious Damage
This is not possible to define but a protest committee should ask:
• was the performance of the boat or crew seriously impaired?
• was the market value of the boat significantly diminished?
• was a crew member seriously injured?

M.4 Physical Damage
An example of physical damage is:
• real damage to either boat or crew

Examples of what is not physical damage are
• capsize with no damage, causing a loss of places
• rigs or lifelines entangled

Match Racing

Severity of Damage is addressed in Match Racing as follows

Umpires and Match Racing Manual

Penalties for Damage resulting from contact between boats racing

Damage Levels

Level

Extent

Effect

Level A - Minor Damage

 

Less than 1 man-hour to fix

Less than $US 100 cost

Boat may race without repair

Level B - Significant Damage

Less than 5 man-hours to fix

Less than $US 1000 cost

Boats may need some (temporary) work before racing again.

Level C - Major Damage

More than 5 man-hours to fix

More than $US 1000

Significant repair required before racing

Each event should determine the appropriate cost level depending on local circumstances and the event.

Penalties to be applied

Level

Round Robin

Knock-Out before Semi Finals

Knock Out Semi Finals and Finals

A

None

None

None

B

Half point

Half point

None

C

One point

One point

Two points

When both boats break rule 14 the penalty should be apportioned between both boats.

Recent MR SI

Damage Level

Level

Extent

Effect

 

Level A - Minor Damage

Does not significantly affect the value, general appearance or normal operation of the boat.

Boat may race without repair although some minor surface work may be required after the event. Repairs should not normally require more than 1 hour of work.

Level B -  Damage

Affects the value and/or  general appearance of the  boat

The damage does not affect the normal  operation of the boat in that race but may  need some (temporary) work before  racing again. Requires more than 1 hour  of work but should not normally require  more than 3 hours of work.

Level C -  Major Damage

The normal operation of the  boat is compromised and its  structural integrity may be  impaired

The boat will need some repair work  before racing again. Requires more than  3 hours of work

 

Point Penalties

Level

Round Robin

Knock Out

A

None

None

B

Half point

Three quarters of a point

C

One point

One point

 





Edited by Brass - 04 Mar 14 at 2:24pm
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 10:51am
To be fair if my boat was holed regardless of the location I would immediately head to shore as you cannot be sure what other damage might be lurking below the surface.

At that point my ability to complete the race has been impaired and I would seek redress/protest as appropriate.
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Posts: 94 		Post Options Post Options   Quote GML Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 10:26am
Originally posted by Rupert

Mind, if you are at fault in the sense that you are RoW boat, but failed to keep clear, something that can ever be exonerated by doing turns if there is serious damage? Or does that override the original rules break?
 
RoW boats are not required to keep clear. I assume you mean "failed to avoid contact when it was reasonably possible for you to do so even if you didn't take action until it was clear that the other boat was not keeping clear"? (See rule 14(a)).
 
If a RoW boat breaks rule 14 and there is damage (NB even minor damage) then she needs to take a penalty. If the damage is "serious" then she must retire.
 
This doesn't "overide" a prior rules break by the other boat. If they other boat broke a rule then she needs to take an applicable penalty. However, unless she caused injury or serious damage or gained a significant advantage despite taking a penalty, it may be that in her case a two-turn penalty will be sufficient. It will all depend on the facts of the case.
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Posts: 94 		Post Options Post Options   Quote GML Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 10:13am
I would say that a hole in the hull is likely to be serious damage irrespective of whether or not it is above or below the waterline (but would depend on e.g. the size of the hole and the type of boat).

I don't think the rules say that damage has to impair the ability of a boat to complete the course as quickly as possible to be "serious damage", and equally I don't think they say that a boat that is unable to complete the course has necessarily suffered "serious damage". Rule 44.1(b) lists two separate reasons why the applicable penalty for a breach of a rule may be for a boat to retire rather than take a two-turn penalty: one is because she caused "injury or serious damage" but the other is because she "gained a signficant advantage".
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