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When all boats retire.
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Brass View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09 Feb 14 at 11:13pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by JohnW

If you retire and then cross the finish line, are you still finishing?

If you're still sailing the course how can you be said to have retired?

The days when one lowered ones's racing burgee and hoisted ones's cruising burgee when one retired are long gone.

There is a difference in the various 'statuses' a boat may have under the definitions or otherwise:  'started', 'racing', 'finished', and how she shall be scored under rules A4.2 or A9 (DNC, DNS, DNF, OCS, RET etc etc).

I suspect that in the 2013 rewrite, when RAF was replaced with RET (and 'retired after finishing' was replaced with 'retired' in rule A4.2), the other incidences of 'retired after finishing' in rule 90.3( a ), and A6.1 were simply overlooked.

I think the better approach to this problem is to say that the definition of 'finish' can only be sensibly applied to a boat that is 'racing', and a boat is 'racing' from her prep signal until she clears the finishing line and marks or retires.

If a boat retires before she 'finishes', she isn't racing and therefore can't meaningfully be said to 'finish'.  She does not finish, and is scored RET (similarly to a boat that has some part of her hull crew or equipment over the starting line before the starting signal, and does not return:  she does not start, but is scored OCS).

An alternative, literal approach would lead to absurdities.  Consider a boat that was entered, but never intended to race, never came near the starting area, but cruised around and eventually crossed the finishing line from the course side, while all the boats that had started, had retired and not finished:  it would be necessary to induce her to retire or to protest her and get her disqualified, otherwise the race would count, absolutely 'by accident'.

A boat retires if and when she says she retires.  She has certainly retired no later than the time she tells the race committee.

It may well be that the anchorage or beach is on the opposite side of the finishing line to the course side, and there may be cases where the finishing line is a transit without an outer limit mark, in which case it's pretty much unavoidable for a boat that has retired to cross the finishing line.

While it's considered a breach of etiquette for a boat that has retired to cross the finishing line, it breaks no rule.  A boat that knew she had broken a rule could approach the committee boat on the course side, hail that she had retired, then (rudely) sail through the finishing line to home.

In this particular scenario the OP indicates fairly clearly that the boat retired after 'recovery, ... continu[ing] sailing ... complet[ing] the course and cross[ing] the finish line'.  That is, she retired after finishing, and rule 90.3( a ) is quite clear that her retirement is not grounds to abandon the race.


Edited by Brass - 10 Feb 14 at 1:02am
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 14 at 11:38pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Peaky

But the instant you get outside help you know you must retire. To continue on the racecourse knowing you must retire could almost be considered unsporting, especially if you interfere with other boats in any way.

Not necessarily. Supposing, for example, the outside help had been unnecessary, unrequested and unhelpful. It would be entirely reasonable for you to continue in the race, competing normally, and request for redress of finishing place, whereas if you retire from the race and ask for redress it could feasibly be turned down because you didn't finish.
Yes, 'unhelpful help' isn't 'help' (looking forward to an ISAF case on this).

If you do not finish a  race, you are really making it difficult for a protest committee to give you redress
  1. your score was worsened by your action in retiring, so you might not be entitled to redress at all;  and
  2. without a place and a time, even if the protest committee finds you are entitled to redress, it is much more difficult to determine what or how much redress you get.
Originally posted by JimC

 And why the heck shouldn't you carry on sailing round after receiving help, intending to retire after finishing? There's only one occasion when you are required to leave the course that I can think of off the top of my head, which is a BFD.
Can't wear this one.

We usually say 'if you know you have broken a rule you must take a penalty [which may be to retire].

As the rules no longer (except by mistake, see my previous post) refer to 'retire after finishing' you haven't a skerrick of a case to interfere with other boats then say 'I meant to retire later on'.

If you are in any doubt that you broke a rule, you are quite entitled to race on, but if you know you broke a rule, you must retire within a reasonable time, and thereafter comply with rule 24.1 (not interfere with another boat that is racing).

And the RRS for BFD don't oblige a boat to leave the course:  it takes a special SI to do that.
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patj View Drop Down
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Posts: 643 		Post Options Post Options   Quote patj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 14 at 6:46am
If only two boats started the race it sounds like you need a rule about how many boats are required on the start line for a race to start. It's set at 3 at our puddle and 4 at the big pond.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 14 at 7:12am
No plans to host the AC then...

Thanks Jim and Brass. I hadn't considered unhelpful/unwanted help.
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Time Lord View Drop Down
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Posts: 301 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Time Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 14 at 9:50am
Patj
Believe under RRS that if one boat starts then that is a race. Think there was an appeal case on this a few years ago so unless you have something more written into the SIs then one boat = a race.
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Blue One View Drop Down
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Posts: 317 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Blue One Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 14 at 11:15am
Originally posted by patj

If only two boats started the race it sounds like you need a rule about how many boats are required on the start line for a race to start. It's set at 3 at our puddle and 4 at the big pond.

Why?
At our club, as long as one person wants to race, we have a race.
The only exception to this is if the weather is so bad that the committee member running the race decides to abandon it. Which has never happened in my 15 years at the club.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 14 at 11:27am
Originally posted by patj

If only two boats started the race it sounds like you need a rule about how many boats are required on the start line for a race to start. It's set at 3 at our puddle and 4 at the big pond.
Originally posted by Time Lord

Patj
Believe under RRS that if one boat starts then that is a race. Think there was an appeal case on this a few years ago so unless you have something more written into the SIs then one boat = a race.
That's what rule 90.3( a ) does:  one boat finishing constitutes a race. 
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 14 at 11:40am
Originally posted by Blue One

Originally posted by patj

If only two boats started the race it sounds like you need a rule about how many boats are required on the start line for a race to start. It's set at 3 at our puddle and 4 at the big pond.
Why?
At our club, as long as one person wants to race, we have a race.
The only exception to this is if the weather is so bad that the committee member running the race decides to abandon it. Which has never happened in my 15 years at the club
Mate, this has got 'dangerously gung-ho' written all over it.

I suggest that your race officers seriously need some more training and practice at race/no-race risk analysis.
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Blue One View Drop Down
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Posts: 317 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Blue One Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 14 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by Blue One

Originally posted by patj

If only two boats started the race it sounds like you need a rule about how many boats are required on the start line for a race to start. It's set at 3 at our puddle and 4 at the big pond.
Why?
At our club, as long as one person wants to race, we have a race.
The only exception to this is if the weather is so bad that the committee member running the race decides to abandon it. Which has never happened in my 15 years at the club
Mate, this has got 'dangerously gung-ho' written all over it.

I suggest that your race officers seriously need some more training and practice at race/no-race risk analysis.

Think you don't know enough about us, as you've miss read it a little. Confused Will fill you in. 
I sail on a tiny puddle ( 10 acres) in the middle of England. ( Google Mid Warwickshire Yacht Club)Its not like we sail on the sea or sidney harbour. Rescue is always close at hand and even if it wasn't, it's only like swimming the length of a swimming pool to the bank. Smile

And to finish, the reason the committee member has never needed to abandon a race is because the sailors themselves decide not to sail before the race. 
We are mostly middle-aged men and women, our gung ho days are long gone. Lol.  Smile

On a personal point, I have sailed in the past at clubs that did not have rescue cover or poor rescue cover. So I am very used to doing race/ no race analysis.


Edited by Blue One - 10 Feb 14 at 12:59pm
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 14 at 12:43pm
One key point - there is a difference between:

-  abandoning a race - which is an action by the race committee or protest committee. An abadoned race may be resailed
-not scoring a race - in which case the race has been sailed but not abandoned, and cannot be resailed

In this case - a boat has sailed the course in compliance with rule 28 and finished within the time limit. The race should be scored. The boat retires after finishing therfore she is scored RET. This is an applicable penalty for her breach of rule 41.

The only issue is whether this boat deliberately broke a rule by not retiring immediately after receiving outside help. In which case a protest could be lodged under rule 2 or action taken under rule 69.

I would suggest that if this incident took place on sheltered water, and boats in other classes were still racing, nobody was inconvenienced etc etc then such action might be over the top. If however, safety boats had to stay on the water, the finish boat and marklayers had to wait for the boat to finish their "jolly", if racing for other boats had to be postponed or abandoned then perhaps some action should be taken - either under rule 2 or 6 or dealt with as a club matter.
Gordon
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