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Rupert View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 Jan 14 at 9:49am
And yes, having been near container ships with apparantly on one on board, I'd have to agree about RRS being low on the priority list.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 14 at 9:47am
"The distinction made is between an object that continues in space, and an object, such as another boat racing with right of way, which is not continuously large, but may, because of its movement, continue to be an obstruction for some considerable time."

I mis read this the first time round - Thanks Jim, it is as I originally thought.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 14 at 8:50am
No, the moving vessel is never a continuing obstruction. However if you are close enough to a moving supertanker for RRS to come into play I submit that the fine detail of the rules is the least of your problems.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 14 at 8:41am
So a 1000 foot supertanker steaming at rightangles to you would be a moving obstruction, but one going parallel to your course could well end up as a continuous one? It all depends upon how the boats interact with it?

When sailing parallel to the shore and a boat sticks its nose in, it used to be that the boat on the inside didn't even have to have room left and a protest put in after - after all, it could always stop or go backwards to stop itself running ashore. Is that still the case?
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Posts: 24 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SteveB00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 14 at 12:56am
All understood.

Thanks again,
Steve  = : ^ )
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 14 at 12:38am
Originally posted by SteveB00

Thanks. I have an electronic version of the rules, had searched as suggested and had found the above paragraphs. What I'm missing is what distinguishes a continuing obstruction from one that isn't, and why we make the distinction.

I assume one of the the naval mooring buoys in Sydney harbour would be an obstruction, and with an aircraft carrier hanging off it, the whole thing would be a continuing obstruction. Does this mean we treat it differently in one case versus the other?

What distinguishes a continuing obstruction from one that isn't, is the meaning of the words used in the sense ordinarily understood in nautical or general use (RRS Introduction, Terminology).

Agree a naval mooring buoy won't be a continuing obstruction, and, depending on the size of boat racing, might or might not be an obstruction.

Agree, the Big E, moored to a naval mooring buoy (or at anchor) will be a continuing obstruction.

Prolly the best way to start is to think about what definitely will be a continuing obstruction:  a shoreline, a sandbank, probably NOT an isolated danger, a rock or shoal.

Prolly a ship moored or at anchor, Maybe NOT a 30ft motorboat anchored or moored,

The distinction made is between an object that continues in space, and an object, such as another boat racing with right of way, which is not continuously large, but may, because of its movement, continue to be an obstruction for some considerable time.  See Case 23.

Probably the main reason for the distinction is the switching off of all mark-room entitlements at a mark that is a continuing obstruction:  Where a mark is a bit of Australia (or some other major continent, or sceptered isle), then all bets about who may or may not be entitled to mark-room, and any exoneration for not keeping clear or giving room, are off, and the outside boat must give the inside overlapped boat room in accordance with rule 19.2( b ), except in the very limited circumstances of rule 19.2( c ).


Edited by Brass - 07 Jan 14 at 3:51am
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Posts: 24 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SteveB00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 14 at 11:31pm
Thanks. I have an electronic version of the rules, had searched as suggested and had found the above paragraphs. What I'm missing is what distinguishes a continuing obstruction from one that isn't, and why we make the distinction.

I assume one of the the naval mooring buoys in Sydney harbour would be an obstruction, and with an aircraft carrier hanging off it, the whole thing would be a continuing obstruction. Does this mean we treat it differently in one case versus the other?

Thanks again,
Steve  = : ^ )
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 14 at 11:17pm
Here's where the electronic versions of the rules are handy.

I've just posted a set of links to rules, case books etc here.

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/get_last_post.asp?TID=11288

Running a text search through the RRS comes up with the following rules referring to a 'continuing obstruction'

18.1 When Rule 18 (mark-room) Applies
Rule 18 ... does not apply
(d) if the mark is a continuing obstruction, in which case rule 19 applies.

19.1 When Rule 19 (room at an obstruction) Applies
... at a continuing obstruction, rule 19 always applies and rule 18 does not.

19.2 Giving Room at an Obstruction
... (c) While boats are passing a continuing obstruction, if a boat that was clear astern and required to keep clear becomes overlapped between the other boat and the obstruction and, at the moment the overlap begins, there is not room for her to pass between them, she is not entitled to room under rule 19.2(b). While the boats remain overlapped, she shall keep clear and rules 10 and 11 do not apply.

And yes, a 100m jetty is a continuing obstruction, but a 1000m supertanker, if under way, is not.




Edited by Brass - 07 Jan 14 at 3:52am
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 14 at 10:43pm
I reckon its always a good idea to go to the Case book with these things.
For example case 23, where three boats are alongside each other. If the ROW boat was classified as a continuing obstruction to the other two then port and starboard would be turned off between them (RRS10).

Then there's 117, which deals with a solid line of boats on a start line. If they could be classed as a continuing obstruction to boats behind then again port and starboard would get turned off, and the start line extraordinarily confusing for the second row...
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 14 at 10:35pm
Can't answer the last bit, but I have certainly been in a position where moored ships and oil rigs have been continuing obstructions. The rules are different, but offhand I can't remember how. Something to do with how you got into the situation in the 1st place.
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