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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Posts: 2003 		Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Club Racing Formats
    Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 10:46am
Originally posted by boatshed

   

Although Yellow Welly has an utter abhorrence to handicap (spreadsheet as he calls it; which is possible a better name) racing, I think it's great and really enjoy it and would be happy to see a much greater emphasis on handicap racing at clubs struggling to hold fleet racing together.



My dislike for it comes from experiencing massive separation - so you lose all concept of there being a race on- it becomes nothing more than a cruise in company with the competitive element being decided by an arbitrary spreadsheet- hence the moniker, 'spreadsheet sailing'.  I have conceded that this might be less of an issue on smaller courses, and believe smaller courses, maybe with average laps, seems like a viable option.  I certainly had a great sail at the FOM in a Finn last year- that was my last handicap race I did.

Of course boats of similar speeds, categorised in slow, medium, fast etc can also alleviate this separation.

When I race I do it for the boat on boat interaction - there was a period (a long time ago) when I could more or less win most races as the main competition who I learned from had moved up into 420s/Lasers, or to more competitive clubs to continue to progress.  I found this equally banal- there's no glory in beating people (younger kids then) with far less experience than you week in, week out, without much effort.  Fortunately the opportunity to move to a more competitive club came around when I moved up to the 420, later the Laser, I was back in the mid fleet where I enjoy racing the most.        

For all the writings of negativity towards the PY system, some I've added myself in the past, I do actually accept that when used properly, there really is no better viable alternative- and it's certainly improved massively since I was routinely sailing just PY races.  The biggest problem for PY racing is that folks don't really understand how it works.  It's a product for clubs, not classes, not individuals and there are protocols clubs are supposed to apply before using it.  Frankly it's tiresome seeing the same crap lobbed at PY from people whose clubs don't locally adjust, or worse, don't even contribute their data to the mix.    



Edited by yellowwelly - 04 Dec 13 at 10:51am
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 10:47am
We're a small club, but have a fair range of people.
I can't say I think many people will be put off going out because they won't get a place in the series. Many people race and don't care that much about their position in the race.
Some of our series are a bit under-supported, you could say people win them by default now and then. But it's not that common and helps to spread te prizes around.
The intense series such as regatta weekend and Easter , 3 of 4 to count over a weekend are popular, the series element might encourage some people to do all the races.



Most sports the majority of people take part without the baggage of worrying about their postion in series. Do runners and mountain bikers who race get so obsessed by these issues? I've not noticed it in my work colleagues, they just seem to take part when they can and enjoy it.
Most people just race for the personal challenge and don't need recognition from the club heirarchy to make it worthwhile. If you do well in one race, people respect you for that, if you come 5th in a series by counting a lot of DNS's people don't notice.

If you only want to go sailing if the subsequent number crunching suits your way of thinking, perhaps you need a new sport? Or at least new challenge in sailing, such as a new boat, or an open meeting campaign, or some personal goal like coaching wife/kids/beginner?
There is a lot more to be gained than a tacky little keepsake prize.
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 11:12am
Originally posted by RS400atC


Most sports the majority of people take part without the baggage of worrying about their postion in series. Do runners and mountain bikers who race get so obsessed by these issues? I've not noticed it in my work colleagues, they just seem to take part when they can and enjoy it.
Most people just race for the personal challenge and don't need recognition from the club heirarchy to make it worthwhile. If you do well in one race, people respect you for that, if you come 5th in a series by counting a lot of DNS's people don't notice.

I am not sure I agree with the above in its entirety but it does echo some truths with me.

In our recent November series I knew I would not do enough 'qualify' so I just went out sailing for 'sh*ts and giggles'. I did 1 race in the 8.1 (in very light airs and I walked away with it unsurprisingly). Another race in the front of an X1 (no wind so not really representative) and then a go in a borrowed Solo.

I enjoyed the competitive fix it gave me and enjoyed the Solo by being pleasantly surprised with the boat as a whole and by being up at the front of the Solo 'fleet'. Did I care where I was overall in the race? Not particularly, I glanced at the overall results but was not that bothered.

I guess it changes over time, a few years ago I was bothered and was obsessed with the results and where I came. I guess age has mellowed me a little!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 11:30am
Well after 13 years of having come precisely nowhere, it ought to be apparent that I too, don't care where I finish. But that is the problem. I *should* care. Otherwise what is the point? If you don't care where you finish, you are not racing. If no-one cares about their series position, why hold a series?
RS400 - you either misunderstand or misrepresent me. I do not yearn for a tacky keepsake. I want a focus, an aim to my sailing. Perhaps an Open Meeting campaign could provide that, but club sailing should be able to too.

One long series ends and another starts...I think club series and events need more identity.
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 11:42am
We treat the longer series as a series (for scoring purposes) so a DNC is no in series +1 but a DNF or RAF is number of boats in race +1.

For the shorter series we score them as regattas so DNC and DNF/RAF are number of boats in the event +1.
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boatshed View Drop Down
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Posts: 457 		Post Options Post Options   Quote boatshed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by yellowwelly

My dislike for it comes from experiencing massive separation - so you lose all concept of there being a race on- it becomes nothing more than a cruise



Well, I see this in class racing as well.   To be at the top of the heap you have to be good, have a good boat and good sails.   A less competent crew in a slow old boat will do nothing more than 'cruise' around on their own at the back of the fleet.

Another thing.  Apart from the difficulty in getting many race officers to correctly note down times, why are fleet race competitors not timed ?    Running races, F1, etc all are.    It would be useful to monitor performance over a season ; see if one is closing the gap on the opposition and such. 




Steve
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by Peaky

Well after 13 years of having come precisely nowhere, it ought to be apparent that I too, don't care where I finish. But that is the problem. I *should* care. Otherwise what is the point? If you don't care where you finish, you are not racing. If no-one cares about their series position, why hold a series?
RS400 - you either misunderstand or misrepresent me. I do not yearn for a tacky keepsake. I want a focus, an aim to my sailing. Perhaps an Open Meeting campaign could provide that, but club sailing should be able to too.

One long series ends and another starts...I think club series and events need more identity.


A club is a bunch of individuals you have chosen to join forces with. You have to take the whole package, not pick the bits you like. There are things I'd change at my club, but not at the expense of losing too many of the majority, so sometimes I have to go with the majority in order to get the good bits.
Some people want 'events with identity' others just want to know there is a race they can do at hightide any weekend they feel like turning up. Too many 'special' events and you rue the missed opportunities for a 'normal' race. Identity can work both ways, if people 'identify' with a series too heavily, they may not turn up for the latter races if they've done poorly early in the series. If it's just a race they may turn up.
I understand your thing about focus, I just don't think the results sheet is usually the best place to look for it. Personal goals or even recognising personal achievements that were not goals, can be more valuable in the long run. I've won a few trophies, which is nice recogntion of my basic competence and being there, might be nice when I'm old to point out to younger people that my name is on a cup or two (somewhere!), but the sailing I've enjoyed most in retrospect has either been to do with feeling I'm/we're improving, or the satisfaction of helping one or two less experienced helms to achieve. Much better than being on a plateau of performance, even if it's a higher one. Plus I enjoy the time on the water.
I'm not too sailing focused myself at the moment, too many other pressures, but next year I'm looking to maybe branch out, or try out some new crews, or do more crewing less helming. Maybe try and get some coaching. Maybe do a few more events. Maybe try and concentrate on one aspect of the racing, for instance try to keep up with the fast blokes instead of going a different way as much as possible. Maybe experiment more instead of being safely mid fleet?
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 1:05pm
Well my position is that the handicap should rest with the sailor and that handicap should be derived in the same way the current system functions, which would in time play to the combination of skill over body shape, so even if you were all racing Solo's the fat boys might get a better chance when it's light or vice versa in locations where it's windy.

The equipment once given should stay fixed unless some material alteration is made, that's the way it should be, as usual being dinghy sailors you are all doing it wrong.

As to clubs and club politics in a small club you cannot do anything else other than follow the RYA prescription or there will be genuine rows that so and so has gerrymandered the result in his/her favour since for the most part half the folk don't even know how the results are worked out.

Personally I don't really care about results and trophies (except when they write reports to the local paper saying I'm 7th or some similar twaddle) as long as I'm fast enough to undo any mistakes and stay in touch with the front of the fleet, or finish first over the water, a) for cleaner air, b) to watch better sailors and c) it's my rightful place
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Posts: 48 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Blackie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 6:29pm
We, like many other clubs, use the 50% plus 1 method of series results and have no qualification. So all sailors have some sort of result be it counting just 1 result and a bunch of DNCs or all races sailed... BUT I think the important thing is that the race results update the series results immediately the race is complete. And everyone (maybe a slight exaggeration!) rushes home to check the effect todays race has had on their overal position. I think it keeps the interest there that Peaky is missing so much. It doesn't matter that you're not in the top 3 but that you're beating that so and so who's sailing that bandit boat over there!!!
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 13 at 11:57pm
To give a perspective from down here in Oz (not saying we do it better!) most clubs run most races on a personal handicap system for an annual pointscore, with only a few drops allowed in order to encourage people to turn up each week. The finishes for annual pointscore races are also normally scored on class or yardstick as well, but the results are normally just for interest's sake as they are not normally scored for any prize.

They also have "club championship" races about once a month, run on a scratch class or yardstick basis and again with only a few drops. The CCs give many sailors a point of differentiation which stops everything just blurring together as Peaky notes. They also tend to attract more boats so there's a bit more of a buzz around at times, something which my old club heightened by running a club BBQ afterwards (normally we move out fairly early to let the club be used for weddings etc, as we do very well out of it financially).

Down here we seem to have a much higher average turnout compared to the number of boats in the club than seems to be the case in the UK. At most Sydney clubs the typical weekend race could see a turnout of 50-70% of the boats in the club, tending to the higher end. That would partly be down to geographical and logistical factors, though, such as the fact that the competition for boat storage in clubs means that "no race, no boat space" policies can be very effective carrots to get people sailing.

I have a strong feeling that the average turnout is reduced when the club sails on yardstick rather than in classes, but whether that is a chicken or an egg is unclear; obviously if you get a strong regular fleet you are more likely to be able to run classes. 

It is interesting to look at sports like MTBing and running to see what motivates people there. The MTBers and Gran Fondo roadies seem to be motivated by improving their time or average speed but that's not something we can do in sailing. It would be nice to read up on some more research into motivation to participate in sport and see how that could be applied. Pity ISAF doesn't do research but just chops and changes on blind faith and gut feeling!

A bit OT, but I find yardstick racing to be very frustrating since you get so little feedback about your sailing.  We still can't work out whether we have been sailing the Tasar badly in our new home or whether the conditions have just been unsuited to it. I've been getting frustrated with myself for sailing badly on the Tasar in the mixed fleets but then again on the rare occasions when I've pulled out the singlehanders the results have been good (ie currently 1/1 with the state champ in Lasers, winning most races on the board) so maybe we are sailing well  but the conditions have been wrong for the boat, or maybe I just fall apart when trying to race yardstick? 

It's not a matter of getting trinkets or not, it's just that some of the joy of doing any sport is getting feedback about whether you are getting it right or not, and when that is blurred by the fact that you are racing different boats a lot of the fun is lost IMHO. As Stewart Walker said, although winning is not the reason for playing the game, it is the object of the game and if the object becomes subject to too many random factors a lot of fun goes out of it for me. Racing yachts under rating systems is similar but less frustrating, personally, because getting a good rating is part of the game.




Edited by Chris 249 - 05 Dec 13 at 12:02am
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