Sail Juice 2013-14 Series

Originally posted by iGRF Originally posted by Rupert And the Laser hasn't got 2 minutes slower (and this pisses me off when anyone says it about any change of handicap). The returns show that the previous handicap was wrong for the majority of places Lasers are sailed over the last 3 years. Wrong? Wrong against what? It's been the same boat since the 70's sailed by in a lot of cases the same people. I quite literally watched a young lad from our club grow up in a Laser did the whole nine yards, Olympic Squad and even now often finishes in the top three at Laser masters events. He's a very very good sailor we all aspire to beat him, the best moment of my embryonic single handed career was taking him clew first on the inside of a mark, I know I'll get nowhere near on handicap, but just as I'm closing, oh look he's gotten even faster on paper because a bunch of folk in a room somewhere think the Laser has been wrong all these years all of a sudden - that is bollox, it also means everything else they're up to must be questioned .

If the 'average' Laser sailor is not as competitive as a couple of decades ago that would not surprise me.  The best will always be highly competitive but many many lasers are now bought in a 'well used state' by 'occasional' club sailors and newbie's cos they are 'there', and are very affordable rather than very competitive.   The perception is that overall the fleet is less competitive on average than it once was....  Don't get carried away now - I have said already that the very best are exactly that and stilll are ....

However it is results in mass that get thrown into the PN machine.  The numbers must be showing a marked Laser decline for some reason !   While some classes may have got faster over time it is difficult to believe that all other classes have got faster in relation to the Laser.

The Sailjuice blurb originally said their take on PN was that they should be adjusted sometimes .... to assume championship quality helms in each class.  They were not going to simply accept results based on the average like the official PN system.   If the hypothesis I've run above is even partly accurate then the best Laser sailors should still not have any real problem... surely ? .. and these 'best' should be even more encouraged to turn up of course .... and in numbers !  Are they ?

Arguably some of the development classes should have age related numbers - the very best in a development class usually sail boats that are faster than the average as well (why would you run development otherwise?).  The bulk of any such fleet contribute to the PN through the returns system but many know they will get comprehensively stuffed at a major handicap event because of the official PN .. and Sailjuice adjustments.  When these are lowered for complete classes like the Merlin and using a single number it  exaggerates the disadvantage that many with slightly older boats already have to manage.   Most probably stay at their home clubs ...

I've got no real problem if the intent for adjustment is to encourage greater participation.  We surely all want to see that.   Just stating as much and explaining  how adjustments really are administered would seem sensible.   We are however talking about handicap class racing and that will always favour one class or another at various locations and in different condiitons - so perhaps it should not really matter to some as much.   

The creation of a series from individual events does seem to have poured a bit of petrol on this particular fire though !  

In summary why would or should some classes be favoured over others ?

Am I simply missing something here ? 

Mike L.

  
 

Edited by blaze720 - 12 Nov 13 at 10:21am

Originally posted by Blue One   i have been on this forum a long time, off and on, and nessa is spot on .

Originally posted by Fraggle But I bet that guy still wouldn't get near the front at a major handicap event on the old handicaps.  How often have you seen a laser sailor win at a major handicap event? - incredibly rarely.  The laser handicap needed tweaking.  Even with the new handicaps the laser sailors aren't running away with the events they turn up at (and some very good guys have shown up).   I always turned up to the sailjuice events with the pure aim of getting a decent result against other radials as I knew I had no chance on handicap.  The SJ handicaps give a decent radial/laser sailor a better chance but I still just look to other lasers/radials to gauge how I have done.

No, Fraggle, I don't think he would and he probably isn't skill wise much different to yourself, but he wouldn't expect to anyway, the PY system is supposed to be to allow clubs to race against each other which they/we do. Major handicap events are or always were in my day showcases for new stuff, a chance to keep your hand in over the winter if you're a coastal club or wanted to get 'noticed' not a vessel for setting standards that trickle down to the rest of the world, which is my fear.
The Laser like our Windsurfer Class is a one design, it can't be expected to keep up with modern developments, nor can it expect to have it both ways be a great class race vehicle and a handicap winning device. Times have moved on, boats have become faster, those events run big courses where legs can get stretched, how could you expect a Laser to compete with a foiling moth, what they do is an entirely different sport, like kite boarding or windsurfing as it was back in the day.
They've knocked the foiler down to 500 now which is the right approach, but moving that one way and the Laser the other way makes no sense to either craft.
What is the standard they are using to to judge?
Pure Logic would dictate if you want the Laser nearer the front then everything else should be handicapped accordingly.

Originally posted by transient For the Disaffected: Google "decline of online message boards forums" most are in the same boat/pram/car/ I've got thoughts as to why this is......part of me would like to scapegoat individuals but that's all it would be, scapegoating. Many of the "controversial discussions" on here do happen in a confrontational, competitive way, they quite often become standup pissing events. They are not conducted in the spirit of co-operation or mutual progress, they never have been in my experience (eight years on here). Some posts historically have even degenerated in out and out collective bullying..........but it's exactly the same on any other male dominated sporting forum. This is not the reason for the decline. The only place that discussion groups seem to be on the increase is on FB in the form of groups. They are inferior IMO and don't have the archived resources but it's what people seem to prefer.  .....as for the Standard Laser handicap, the only Lasers that have ever beaten me consistently have done so because they were sailed better. How the hell you expect to beat a youngster who has done an Olympic campaign is beyond me. As and old fart of similar age to me Graeme, you're not even going to get close, live with it.

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