Sail Juice 2013-14 Series

If the 'average' Laser sailor is not as competitive as a couple of decades ago that would not surprise me.  The best will always be highly competitive but many many lasers are now bought in a 'well used state' by 'occasional' club sailors and newbie's cos they are 'there', and are very affordable rather than very competitive.   The perception is that overall the fleet is less competitive on average than it once was....  Don't get carried away now - I have said already that the very best are exactly that and stilll are ....

However it is results in mass that get thrown into the PN machine.  The numbers must be showing a marked Laser decline for some reason !   While some classes may have got faster over time it is difficult to believe that all other classes have got faster in relation to the Laser.

The Sailjuice blurb originally said their take on PN was that they should be adjusted sometimes .... to assume championship quality helms in each class.  They were not going to simply accept results based on the average like the official PN system.   If the hypothesis I've run above is even partly accurate then the best Laser sailors should still not have any real problem... surely ? .. and these 'best' should be even more encouraged to turn up of course .... and in numbers !  Are they ?

Arguably some of the development classes should have age related numbers - the very best in a development class usually sail boats that are faster than the average as well (why would you run development otherwise?).  The bulk of any such fleet contribute to the PN through the returns system but many know they will get comprehensively stuffed at a major handicap event because of the official PN .. and Sailjuice adjustments.  When these are lowered for complete classes like the Merlin and using a single number it  exaggerates the disadvantage that many with slightly older boats already have to manage.   Most probably stay at their home clubs ...

I've got no real problem if the intent for adjustment is to encourage greater participation.  We surely all want to see that.   Just stating as much and explaining  how adjustments really are administered would seem sensible.   We are however talking about handicap class racing and that will always favour one class or another at various locations and in different condiitons - so perhaps it should not really matter to some as much.   

The creation of a series from individual events does seem to have poured a bit of petrol on this particular fire though !  

In summary why would or should some classes be favoured over others ?

Am I simply missing something here ? 

Mike L.

  
 

Edited by blaze720 - 12 Nov 13 at 10:21am

Originally posted by iGRF Originally posted by Rupert And the Laser hasn't got 2 minutes slower (and this pisses me off when anyone says it about any change of handicap). The returns show that the previous handicap was wrong for the majority of places Lasers are sailed over the last 3 years. Wrong? Wrong against what? It's been the same boat since the 70's sailed by in a lot of cases the same people. I quite literally watched a young lad from our club grow up in a Laser did the whole nine yards, Olympic Squad and even now often finishes in the top three at Laser masters events. He's a very very good sailor we all aspire to beat him, the best moment of my embryonic single handed career was taking him clew first on the inside of a mark, I know I'll get nowhere near on handicap, but just as I'm closing, oh look he's gotten even faster on paper because a bunch of folk in a room somewhere think the Laser has been wrong all these years all of a sudden - that is bollox, it also means everything else they're up to must be questioned .

All,

To clarify my point from my previous post and to confirm what Chris and Alex have stated. My point was that the SJ series itself does not submit a return. If other clubs are influenced by the SJ numbers and submit a return accordingly or if a club hosting one of the events uploads their SJ races as part of their club account within PYS the data will come through to their return but the PYAG will not be able to identify this as it will be embedded within the relevant class numbers that are returned. So the SJ series numbers do not affect the discussion the PYAG have when it comes to considering the PN list for the upcoming season. The fact that a club may upload SJ races will not have much of an effect on their club return. If you consider 98% of races from one of the host clubs may have been done with a class racing on a PN of 1500 and the 2% of their races which were the SJ races had the same class racing on a PN of 1000 means that the weighting is going to be far nearer 1500. This is as opposed to the SJ series as its own entity having a return which would have used 1000 for that class and that would have come through to the digest.

The other more important thing to consider is it is not the numbers that clubs are currently using it is the recommendations that clubs make which are important when considering the national PN for the following season. If a club submits an excel spread sheet return this could be anything, however if they use the PYS website the recommendation is out of the clubs hands. The recommendation will be calculated by the website to give the number that the boats should be using to give them the fairest results based on the races that have been uploaded. So to take one of the examples given; the Laser may be raced on 1117 by the SJ series and may be raced on 1085 at club racing. However at both events the performance of the Laser could be 1090 and as such that is the crucial number which is returned to the RYA for inclusion in the digest.

Also to give the RYA spin on why it is so important for clubs to consider making handicap adjustments for their racing is the RYA PN list cannot physically cater for every club perfectly. It can get (and with advancements in the website is getting closer) close to the true performance of each class however cannot take into account all of the local variances that are out there. For example take any one class on the list and it will perform differently at the various venues across the UK. For example the Asymmetric style skiffs may struggle to sail to the PN on the RYA list at a small sheltered in land lake, as there is not allot of room for them to manoeuvre and the shifts will make spinnaker handling tricky so a single handed boat may fair better at that club. Take the same boats to the sea and the Skiffs are more likely to do well as they have plenty of space to stretch their legs. Accordingly both those clubs would need to make allowances for this. If their PYS account also recommends the same then you have the data to back up what the club observes on the water. The RYA also appreciate that not every club has the luxury of a big fleet that will give them the confidence to make adjustments. Accordingly the RYA recommends that such clubs upload historical data to the PYS so that they can increase the amount of data the website has to analyse and make recommendations accordingly.

 

Thanks again.

 

Andy

Originally posted by Rupert Everything else IS being questioned.Your chap doesn't sound like a typical, average Laser sailor, either. If you were closing in on handicap on someone that talented, it proves the point that the handicap was wrong.

No it doesn't, it means I'm improving.. Exactly my point, the Laser is a standard, it's a standard because it's an Olympic Class and sailed by good people, it's been the same boat since forever in my world, an anchor for the entire sport, messing about with it is just plain silly. It can't be wrong everything that's come along since can, it's what the system is missing, a null point, they're so confused they're going round in circles, something has to be fixed.

Edited by iGRF - 12 Nov 13 at 10:00am

Everything else IS being questioned.

Your chap doesn't sound like a typical, average Laser sailor, either. If you were closing in on handicap on someone that talented, it proves the point that the handicap was wrong.