Sail Juice 2013-14 Series

Originally posted by JimC Originally posted by iGRF Five, six or is it seven major events all uploading the Laser at 1117 or whatever it is, makes no difference Well, last year the returns for the Laser ran to over 14,000 races from over 100 clubs, so how much difference do you think 5 or 7 moreraces are going to make?

Well they are pretty big events and more important they are a focus for all sorts of trade promoted activity hence I suspect the sensitivity of this discussion. Opinions get formed by opinion leaders and they surround these events, they're held off season they have all the major venues and a lot of very competent participants, the list describes contributions from RYA/Class change, RYA club data, Based on boat specs, or SWS data whatever that is. There are 54 changes from the RYA list of 114 and 57 changes from last year, lots of effort for one organising body and all of it subjective where a degree of objectivity is required.

I'm sure everyone else fully understands what's going on, I don't, I'm sure lots of others might also wonder what's going on all of a sudden but wouldn't dare rock the boat. You/they whoever lets this happen are sending out the wrong signals. Potentially there is money riding on handicap ratings for some, whilst for others it's just irritation and shoulder shrugging up and down the land. The system is too complicated, it's not transparent and wether you believe what Wing Wang suggest or not, I've been around the Marine Industry long enough not to doubt agenda driven interference.

So I've made my point, I'll also withdraw from this thread, I may be thick skinned but one can only take so many bitchy comments when frankly the system sucks and all I'm doing is pointing that out and suggesting there is a better way.

I'm trying [and often failing] to discipline myself on postings with two considerations:

"If you've already said it and been ignored is there any point in saying it again"

and

"will this post actually make any difference to how people think"

Its hard to sit back when the same lies and distortions about something you are involved in and put effort into are repeated ad tedium (and GRF is by no means the only offender, maybe not even the worst), but ultimately it is often the best thing to do.

I guess it yet again comes back to the xkcd classic Someone is wrong on the Internet

Edited by JimC - 12 Nov 13 at 9:53am

Everything else IS being questioned.

Your chap doesn't sound like a typical, average Laser sailor, either. If you were closing in on handicap on someone that talented, it proves the point that the handicap was wrong.

Originally posted by Rupert Everything else IS being questioned.Your chap doesn't sound like a typical, average Laser sailor, either. If you were closing in on handicap on someone that talented, it proves the point that the handicap was wrong.

No it doesn't, it means I'm improving.. Exactly my point, the Laser is a standard, it's a standard because it's an Olympic Class and sailed by good people, it's been the same boat since forever in my world, an anchor for the entire sport, messing about with it is just plain silly. It can't be wrong everything that's come along since can, it's what the system is missing, a null point, they're so confused they're going round in circles, something has to be fixed.

Edited by iGRF - 12 Nov 13 at 10:00am

All,

To clarify my point from my previous post and to confirm what Chris and Alex have stated. My point was that the SJ series itself does not submit a return. If other clubs are influenced by the SJ numbers and submit a return accordingly or if a club hosting one of the events uploads their SJ races as part of their club account within PYS the data will come through to their return but the PYAG will not be able to identify this as it will be embedded within the relevant class numbers that are returned. So the SJ series numbers do not affect the discussion the PYAG have when it comes to considering the PN list for the upcoming season. The fact that a club may upload SJ races will not have much of an effect on their club return. If you consider 98% of races from one of the host clubs may have been done with a class racing on a PN of 1500 and the 2% of their races which were the SJ races had the same class racing on a PN of 1000 means that the weighting is going to be far nearer 1500. This is as opposed to the SJ series as its own entity having a return which would have used 1000 for that class and that would have come through to the digest.

The other more important thing to consider is it is not the numbers that clubs are currently using it is the recommendations that clubs make which are important when considering the national PN for the following season. If a club submits an excel spread sheet return this could be anything, however if they use the PYS website the recommendation is out of the clubs hands. The recommendation will be calculated by the website to give the number that the boats should be using to give them the fairest results based on the races that have been uploaded. So to take one of the examples given; the Laser may be raced on 1117 by the SJ series and may be raced on 1085 at club racing. However at both events the performance of the Laser could be 1090 and as such that is the crucial number which is returned to the RYA for inclusion in the digest.

Also to give the RYA spin on why it is so important for clubs to consider making handicap adjustments for their racing is the RYA PN list cannot physically cater for every club perfectly. It can get (and with advancements in the website is getting closer) close to the true performance of each class however cannot take into account all of the local variances that are out there. For example take any one class on the list and it will perform differently at the various venues across the UK. For example the Asymmetric style skiffs may struggle to sail to the PN on the RYA list at a small sheltered in land lake, as there is not allot of room for them to manoeuvre and the shifts will make spinnaker handling tricky so a single handed boat may fair better at that club. Take the same boats to the sea and the Skiffs are more likely to do well as they have plenty of space to stretch their legs. Accordingly both those clubs would need to make allowances for this. If their PYS account also recommends the same then you have the data to back up what the club observes on the water. The RYA also appreciate that not every club has the luxury of a big fleet that will give them the confidence to make adjustments. Accordingly the RYA recommends that such clubs upload historical data to the PYS so that they can increase the amount of data the website has to analyse and make recommendations accordingly.

 

Thanks again.

 

Andy