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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sail Juice 2013-14 Series
    Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 11:15am
Originally posted by iGRF

You can state that categorically can you?

Pretty much yes. If there is any its utterly invisible to me, and I am there.
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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Posts: 2003 		Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 11:18am
I'm sorry Chris, whilst I accept that the data might not be directly used over and above its contribution to the national portfolio, I cannot think for one moment that a SJ doesn't get discussed in qualitative evaluation by the PYAG.... it should, it's the opportunity for the human beings who sit on that group to see boats sailed by different people, boats they don't see in their home clubs and to see the relative performance improvements or to make the more dynamic changes that previous PY iterations failed to undertake.  

You sit on both groups- I cannot for one minute think that one role has no bearing on the other.  It should, it's experience- and it's valued and (generally) well regarded.  Even those of us who definitely don't want handicap racing, we can at least acknowledge the massive improvements that have been made by you and your fellow volunteers on the PYAG.  

Edit: I hope any of my contribution to this thread is not viewed as 'negative'... these events are what they are.  Take them at face value if you like winter handicap sailing, or sod off.  I will chose the latter, however when sailing a minority interest boat, some of them at least provided a framework to ensure one or two others might show up to race against on a course that the boat was actually designed for.    Any discussion around cheating and professionalism applies to any event, not just these events- I hope the industry has learned some lessons after the last two years, folks take this racing as seriously as class events- respect that, and no issues will present themselves.


Edited by yellowwelly - 11 Nov 13 at 11:27am
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chrisg View Drop Down
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Posts: 893 		Post Options Post Options   Quote chrisg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 11:21am
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by JimC

Well, if you're going to believe your own totally and completely uninformed guesses as against first hand information from the people involved then there's no point talking to you is there.

Funnily enough I was commenting on another forum on an utterly different topic last night to the effect that there's really very little point in providing additional information to the conspiracy theorist types, because they won't believe any extra information you give them anyway, so all you are doing is wasting your own time and increasing your own stress.


So I'm wrong then? There's nothing unfair, biased, trade or event management favoured gerrymandering going on in the latest PY figures they've just published? You can state that categorically can you?

Graham,

I think you are confusing yourself. Only the RYA publish Portsmouth numbers (yardsticks). The Sailjuice series numbers are not PY's, they are local handicaps. The group that set those numbers for their own series have nothing to do with PY's and they also do not I believe have any allegiance to any particular dinghy class or manufacturer. They are a group of people from each of the original organising clubs who have got together to publish a set of numbers which they believe will give fairer racing for all on their stretches of water. I'm sure the new events will be asked for representation after their events and before the numbers are discussed for the next series. Class numbers have been moved where necessary based on the data they have. I believe if you look down the list it tells you how numbers have been arrived at, whether its data from previous Sailjuice events, local club numbers or the PY list.

Nobody is out to try and screw over any particular class. All we want is to provide some good winter handicap racing for all. We certainly would not change numbers to boost attendance by any particular class over any other. If a class feels that their handicap for the Sailjuice series is wildly out, the best thing to do is turn up and race so the guys sorting next years numbers out have more data to use.

So yes, sorry but you are wrong.


Edited by chrisg - 11 Nov 13 at 11:26am
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 11:46am
Originally posted by chrisg



So yes, sorry but you are wrong.


You don't have to be sorry, that allegedly is my job, yet for everything you and Jim have said and I don't doubt any of it for one moment and please don't take offence at any of my lame assertions, but don't you see if the system had some standardisation in a fact derived 'null' point none of this could happen.

A Laser is a Laser, when I came on the scene it was rated at 1078 and a really old one won our local series. Now we may all be duffers, but we are typical of club sailing dufferdom and moving a boat that has not physically altered in any way to speed up or slow down from 1078 to 1117 just does not pass the test of logic. Therefore there must be other forces in play.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 12:00pm
The EPS handicap when I started racing against them was considerably lower than it is now - just a little slower than a 300, if I recall correctly. Has big business been involved in making it nicer, or results? I'll go with results. And judging by the lack of Lasers winning anything at our club for a long, long time, I'll go with results there, too.

Where we sail, the Phantoms and EPS's get good racing on the water in the mid wind strengths, and are similarly handicapped, whereas a few years ago the EPS had to win by miles on the water, which never happened. One went up, the other down - looks like the system is working.

Given that Chris has stated that the numbers they get are from actual race times, not the figures used by clubs, the figures used at the sail juice events can have no effect. The results, if uploaded, will have the same effect as a similar number of club returns.

I can see (pretty much unavoidable) flaws in the system, as I said earlier. What I can't see is this manipulation of data you keep banging on about.
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by chrisg



So yes, sorry but you are wrong.


You don't have to be sorry, that allegedly is my job, yet for everything you and Jim have said and I don't doubt any of it for one moment and please don't take offence at any of my lame assertions, but don't you see if the system had some standardisation in a fact derived 'null' point none of this could happen.

A Laser is a Laser, when I came on the scene it was rated at 1078 and a really old one won our local series. Now we may all be duffers, but we are typical of club sailing dufferdom and moving a boat that has not physically altered in any way to speed up or slow down from 1078 to 1117 just does not pass the test of logic. Therefore there must be other forces in play.


Well the sea hasn't changed neither has the Laser, but is there just maybe a different demographic sailing them in different conditions to the old days?
USed to be the Lasers would be the boats out when it's windy, these days there are lot of Laser Sailors over 50, sailing a lot of lighter wind races.
Discounting the 'serious' Laser boys who are class racing anyway?
It's a 3.6% change.
Could it be the old number was 2% wrong and the system has over-reacted?
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iitick View Drop Down
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Posts: 392 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 12:21pm
I do get bored with all this aggro. I, and I am sure many others, have had a lovely year. A bit or racing on our beautiful lake. Restored two boats, spectated at Cardiff and Weymouth. Friendly drinks with mates. 

It seems so sad that some of you are so unhappy.
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winging it View Drop Down
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Posts: 3958 		Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 12:21pm
and this is why no one really bothers posting much here any more.  A nice little post about a fun series that keeps us all from dying of boredom over the unlit months is torn to shreds by people who largely don't even go along to compete. 

But it's like the telly isn't it?  If you don't like what's on turn it off and do something else.  Just don't shred up the show you don't bother to watch.

I'm going because it will be fun.
the same, but different...

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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Posts: 2003 		Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 12:32pm
I think only one person is tearing it to shreds though... based on a false understanding of the handicap system.  

The only other people commenting are largely saying they are good events for what they are.

- They are not class regattas
- They are not benchmarking exercises

... so what... if you like them, cool.  Go and Enjoy, please report back what those of us who won't be attending are missing.  It'll be a lot more interesting post-event reading than Acme Dinghy Limited used an illegal tiller extension.  
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 12:33pm
No, it's like when there's nothing interesting on telly, nothing drives up thread hits more than controversy, nothing drives discussion groups more than controversy.

If you don't have disagreement you don't have discussion, and Sailjuice what would they rather have?

A thread that has one lame yippee, then slips down the page and out of sight, or some old t**ser who clearly has no idea ranting and raving driving up the hit rate? (Whilst also containing just a hint of veracity).

Join in, or tut tut in your coffee, without something going on here, the place will die, trust me, I've seen it happen.
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