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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sail Juice 2013-14 Series
    Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 9:15am
The facts cannot be equally applied simply because there are varying amounts of data from each class, and no way of knowing the variation of skills between results sets. If every club using the system sent in returns, then any influence from the results from the sailjuice series would have vanishingly small influence. For all I know, it does.

For all its faults, I'm am totally unconvinced that any other system suggested on here would be anything like as accurate.

What bothers me about the sailjuice system is that they mix it with the normal one, so a class new to the event will sail off the standard Pn, but a regular boat will have been changed, even though they might be very similar in speed and handicap.

Not that handicaps are the reason I won't be going - I'd rather get cold nearer to home.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 9:16am
Originally posted by yellowwelly

Fact 1: SailJuice event results get discussed by the PYAG before finalising the annual list

News to me. Are you sure?
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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Posts: 2003 		Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 9:34am
well I'm sure the data gets uploaded into the national numbers... but of course that is nothing different from a localised handicap.

I was also informed (in a meeting I had with the RYA when I cared about PY numbers) that qualitative data is also used before numbers are published- especially with new or radically changing classes.  This included SJ events.  I know Chris sits on the Great Lakes system committee, so FWIW, glad that the broad experience with handicap racing - and the only open, multi-venue handicap series - does have direct engagement 'at the top' with the PYAG. 

Personally I don't have any issues with the use of the SJ data in setting the national numbers- quite the reverse in fact, at least the GL system is adapting the PY as set out in the guidelines for usage.

Will I be attending any of them- highly unlikely.  Any 'away matches' for me are windsurfing these days, and if I was ever going to use my road base again, it would probably be for an open meeting somewhere salty, as I'd like to try the Solo on the sea at some point, especially in some waves.  But as Getafix says, plenty do attend them, and if this is one of the few times you could access windward/leeward racing with more than 4 others on the start line (GGP / SN) then beggars can't be choosers.  Both were great events last time I did them.

I'm busy on the Saturday of the Dash, otherwise would have come along for local support reasons, but I'll draw the line at doing a Pursuit Race on the Sunday.... if it's windy I might be around windsurfing, so hope that the 'member's only' parking will properly observed by the non-members freeloaders honoured guests  LOL


Edited by yellowwelly - 11 Nov 13 at 9:42am
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chrisg View Drop Down
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Posts: 893 		Post Options Post Options   Quote chrisg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 10:37am
Originally posted by yellowwelly

Originally posted by alstorer

 
Could we stick to facts?

sure.

Fact 1: SailJuice event results get discussed by the PYAG before finalising the annual list

your turn

Fact 1 - sorry but that is just totally not true. Whatever Sailjuice numbers are used at the Sailjuice series are not discussed at the PYAG meeting.
As Al mentioned, the only influence that the sailjuice series might have over RYA numbers is if the results are uploaded in to the RYA PYS system by the individual club. But compared to the global upload the sailjuice series don't comprise of that many races (pursuit race data cannot be used). I've been over this before on these forums, but will say it again here, it doesn't matter what handicap number the club returning uses for any particular class of boat as the PYS works out its own numbers for each race and does not base these on the handicap number input by the club. Each races calculated class numbers are then combined to give clubs their suggested class numbers and these club numbers are then compiled to give the RYA suggested numbers for each class nationally.

Originally posted by iGRF

 

...Which you cannot help but come to the conclusion there is an element of trade and professional bias in play which suggests to the casual observer an element of financially induced well corruption is perhaps too strong a word but lets say brand favouritism or cronyism . Now, it may not be and I'd be the first to proffer an apology were it not the case, but the extreme moves of certain brands/boats against the totally static nature of others does nothing other than to convince me that all is not as it should be. 


Fact 2 - I've said it before, as far as I am aware nobody who sits on the PYAG has any connections to any dinghy manufacturers and we all declare which classes we sail so that when discussion turns to those we bow out and can be seen to be impartial. As part of the process though I will double check when we meet for next years numbers in January. No class gets any preferential treatment over any other. We work with the data we have, so once again, the best way to improve the numbers is to ensure your club is making returns using the electronic PYS system which is incredibly easy if you already score using one of the freely available results programs such as Sailwave or HAL. 

Those of us giving up our spare time to sit on and do work for the PYAG look forward to receiving your apology.....

Originally posted by Ruscoe

Done um all, for years now.  Apart from the virgin events.  Whole series has been ruined now, I will do events if I feel like it.  But they have been ruined by dubious rule infringements lately so not sure I will bother again.

Fact 3 - Russ, sorry you feel like that. As someone who competes at the events they have annoyed me too. As someone who helps run one of the events, we are doing all we can to try to ensure everything is above board and people play fair, but if people notice something (like out of class boats) please make the event organisers aware AT THE TIME. We can't be experts on every class rule. The Dash NOR includes this line: "Each participating boat shall comply with their current class rules. Boats which don’t are still eligible to enter but may be issued a different handicap at the discretion of the organisers."

Off to do some (non marine industry related) work now so flame away.....
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 10:50am
Originally posted by chrisg

Those of us giving up our spare time to sit on and do work for the PYAG look forward to receiving your apology.....


You'll receive your apology the moment I'm convinced beyond any doubt there is no 'cronyism' 'favouritism' or other in my opinion, unfair gerrymandering of the system employed by the sail juice mob. Which given the ludicrous number the Laser enjoys and the to me suspicious swing in favour of the D1 with very little data and the EPS remaining static, is going to be very unlikely.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 11:00am
Well, if you're going to believe your own totally and completely uninformed guesses as against first hand information from the people involved then there's no point talking to you is there.

Funnily enough I was commenting on another forum on an utterly different topic last night to the effect that there's really very little point in providing additional information to the conspiracy theorist types, because they won't believe any extra information you give them anyway, so all you are doing is wasting your own time and increasing your own stress.
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Posts: 349 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon Lovesey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 11:03am
The last GJW SailJuice Series (2012/13) saw participation from over 1,000 sailors (up 26%)  from 100 classes.

Handy Guide to GjW SailJuice 13/14 Series :

Draycote Dash23/24 NovDraycote Water SC
2 days
Handicap Racing and pursuit Race
Evening Meal
Datchet Flyer14/15 DecDatchet Water SC
2 days
Handicap Racing and pursuit RaceEvening meal and End of Season party
Brass Monkey27 DecYorkshire Dales SC
1 Day
Handicap Racing

Grafham Grand Prix29 DecGrafham Water SC
1 Day
Handicap Racing

Oxford Blue4 JanOxford SC
1 Day
Handicap Racing

Bloody Mary11 JanQueen Mary SC
1 Day
Pursuit Race

Steve Nicholson25 JanNorthampton SC
1 Day
Handicap Racing
Charity Event
Tiger Trophy1/2 FebRutland SC
2 Days
Handicap Racing and pursuit RaceEvening meal and charity function


Series Site

http://events.sailracer.org/eventsites/globalwarmup.asp?eventid=179314
www.sailracer.org
Online Sailing Results, GPS Tracking & Event Management
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 11:06am
Originally posted by JimC

Well, if you're going to believe your own totally and completely uninformed guesses as against first hand information from the people involved then there's no point talking to you is there.

Funnily enough I was commenting on another forum on an utterly different topic last night to the effect that there's really very little point in providing additional information to the conspiracy theorist types, because they won't believe any extra information you give them anyway, so all you are doing is wasting your own time and increasing your own stress.


So I'm wrong then? There's nothing unfair, biased, trade or event management favoured gerrymandering going on in the latest PY figures they've just published? You can state that categorically can you?
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 11:09am
I'm starting to think that conspiracy theorists are all plotting to drive reasonable people mad......

Grumpf, to justify calling Chris a liar (which is what you are doing) you'll have to show MUCH better evidence than the fact that you, from your limited vantage point, don't agree with the PY numbers. It's one hell of an accusation to make and anything so grave as publically abusing the honesty of a volunteer requires damn good evidence.


Edited by Chris 249 - 11 Nov 13 at 11:13am
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 11:14am
Hey convict, I'm not calling anyone a 'liar' this is a discussion about one event that alters the National PY system to its' own end, Chris afaik works on the national system committee which in this instance, flawed as I believe it is, I am not questioning.
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