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R Speculation

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iitick View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: R Speculation
    Posted: 01 Nov 13 at 10:54pm
I understand the theory of raking rigs but on a gusty little puddle like ours I think the advantage is minimal.
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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 13 at 10:45am
Jeffers referred to Blazes and raking rigs ....

This was introduced by a few Phantom guys who also sail Blazes... Any advantage on the Blaze does seem very marginal.  The rigs are of course very different and it may well suit the Phantom but not the Blaze. 

I've naturally experimented to see if there was anything that might transfer across as well.  I got a feeling that letting the mast drop back on a Phantom might work because raking your mast back also has a direct effect on the lowers.  They slacken of course as a direct consequence and allow the mast to bend a lot more -  This helps get sail shape changed.    So any benefit attributed to mast rake might really be down to changes in lowers tension .. in full or in part.

So I abandoned a raking mast adjustment on the Blaze (which it is rather raked anyway) and am trying out simple adjsutment of the lowers.... and there might just be some benefit.   In really windy conditions slacker lowers can help but I do mean really windy..  If it blows that hard I'd probably slacken them on the shore prior to going out anyway and then just leave them - having them adjustable on the water just makes it quick to change.

Some of this stuff can be very subjective and there seems more than one way to sail the boat we find. I sail with a much flatter sail than most and I am far from being 'light' ... others still seem to go well with much fuller set-ups and of course we sail with identical North sails.  I also like 'simple' all other things being equal as it keeps your head out of the boat.  Simple also means you are not constantly wondering if your settings are 'right'.

Mike L.
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Phil_1193 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Phil_1193 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 13 at 11:25am
Originally posted by blaze720

I got a feeling that letting the mast drop back on a Phantom might work because raking your mast back also has a direct effect on the lowers.  They slacken of course as a direct consequence and allow the mast to bend a lot more -  This helps get sail shape changed.    So any benefit attributed to mast rake might really be down to changes in lowers tension .. in full or in part.



Fine apart from the fact that as you release the forestay tension on the Phantom you pull a bit more on the lowers.

Only 1/2-1" but you do take up the slack to stop the mast bending too much at the bottom as the kicker goes on.


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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 13 at 11:40am
Fine apart from the fact that as you release the forestay tension on the Phantom you pull a bit more on the lowers.

I'm sure you are better informed than I !   And I'm sure 'lowers only' must have been tried.  On the Blaze the rig is always much more raked anyway.  It one time we worried it might end up like the Contender with more and more rake being applied.... but there is a clear point with very high rake on the Blaze where the handling goes off song ...  It stopped the trend going too far thankfully.   

Mike L.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 13 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by Phil_1193

Originally posted by blaze720

I got a feeling that letting the mast drop back on a Phantom might work because raking your mast back also has a direct effect on the lowers.  They slacken of course as a direct consequence and allow the mast to bend a lot more -  This helps get sail shape changed.    So any benefit attributed to mast rake might really be down to changes in lowers tension .. in full or in part.



Fine apart from the fact that as you release the forestay tension on the Phantom you pull a bit more on the lowers.

Only 1/2-1" but you do take up the slack to stop the mast bending too much at the bottom as the kicker goes on.


First time I've heard of that on a Phantom. Like blase720 says part of the depowering effect does come from lowers being loosened as the forestay is eased, but i think there are other things going on as well. Otherwise the guys with adjustable lowers would simply ease their lowers in stringer winds. My observation is that most of the guys with adjustable lowers don't really touch them anyway as rig rake is so good at depowering.

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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 13 at 2:00pm
Losen lowers, adjust forestay, tighten shrouds... Ease off kicker, tweak Cunningham, let off outhaul.... Adjust the traveller... Ease main sheet...... Tighten toestraps... Hike like a bitch. Well whatever the arguments for and against new classes and condemning oneself to the handicap fleet, at least some builders are focused on KISS for us muppets!

Way to go RS and Cirrus - thank you!
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Ruscoe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 13 at 2:03pm
Sure I have heard the same thing on a phantom, dropping forestry off and winding on lower tension.  Guess there maybe something to do with winding more kicker tension as well.  I can't quite remember having not owned a phantom for years now.

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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 13 at 7:53pm
there have been phantoms with set ups that loosened the forestay and automatically pulled the lowers on the right amount...lots of fine tuning and no-one bothered.

A lot of the top guys have adjustable lowers, some don't as it really doesn't seem to give you that much more for the expense and complexity.

I don't use them and the benefits are that as the rig loosens off from the forestay the kicker is tightened to keep controlling the roach in the sail. In my case where I use a P&B sail it responds to a curved luff quite well and therefore the lowers not tightening isn't a problem. On a north setup where it really does require a straight luff then this may not be the case. In most instances though for the majority of people the first they let the forestay off is when they are getting seriously overpowered. At this point the lowers is the last thing that they need to worry about, remembering to let the kicker off before you tack is slightly more important!

I don't bother with loosing off the rig tension on a small puddle with shifts because of the tacking problems, however as soon as you are on something a bit more stable and larger then I use it all the time.
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 14 at 8:31am
Originally posted by MartinWadhams

Apologies for the delay! Won't bore you with the Easyjet full lockers - cabin bag sent to hold - laptop hard drive that never started again - new machine - new operating system - incompatible camera software etc etc story...

Anyway, these are photos of a proto, built to test / develop the fundamentals - shape "styling" not yet applied so finished boat bound to differ in appearance.





Will this be at Ali Pally?
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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 14 at 9:08am
AIUI - yes, looks good doesn't it?  Nice n simple.
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