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Redress results in Abandonment
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OultonBen View Drop Down
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Posts: 49 		Post Options Post Options   Quote OultonBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Redress results in Abandonment
    Posted: 21 Oct 13 at 9:52pm
Club race-officer made two Mistakes, everyone now agrees, and Started about 30+ seconds early;
The 'starters' were pointing in all sorts of directions, some positioned OCS and some correctly, some set off and others waited with total verbal mayhem;
The RO's 2nd mistake was not to abandon, everyone now agrees, and in a significantly veering very light breeze, earliest starters reached 1st Mark last;
Race continued so after the anticipated Request-for-Redress, which the PC upheld, there was now the question of what to apply ??

The PC decided, after much heartache, to Abandon;
Out of 13 participants the results for 2 became worse, and 3 became better (none of the top 3 were affected);  pretty equitable or not ?

This of course is where the parents stepped in !
Some, flaunting their RYA, ISAF IJ, NJ, Trainer and other tickety-boos have offered to deliver "courses" to the home Club, some demanding to see the completed Protest form (why?).

What say you ? Elaborations available i.d.c.


Edited by OultonBen - 21 Oct 13 at 9:54pm
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 13 at 10:17pm
Abandonment should always be a last desperate resort, but your somewhat confusing description sure makes it sound as if it were the only choice.

I have not the slightest clue what you mean by results becoming worse or better. If the race was abandoned it can't affect what results in previous races were. If you mean results changed from where they were if the abandoned race results counted, well, so what. The results have already been established as being utterly meaningless, that's why the race was abandoned, so trying to draw any conclusions from the meaningless seems futile.
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Posts: 279 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Quagers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 13 at 10:42pm
If someone with a real ISAF IJ cert is offering to run a course at your local club you should absolutely take them up on it, they are likely to be a very knowledgeable person. Beyond that from the (admittedly pretty unclear) description you have given it sounds like abandoning the race was the right thing to do.
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Posts: 49 		Post Options Post Options   Quote OultonBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 12:07am
(1)Sorry JimC,
The event was meant to be 3-out-of-4, but became 2-out-of-3 after abandonment of one race, hence the improved or worsened overall results.

(2) Tried to make the description as brief as possible, and not bore you;  apologies if that made it confusing.

(3)Quaggers,
The Timer was a chap who holds an unenviable 'record' for, in an ISAF Class, winning the most number of World Championship races, without actually winning the Worlds themselves, PRO was his former crew; therefore a fair bit of experience but hey, they made a mistake ..... hands held high !

Then left the PC with a problem, that led to Abandonment;
most grown-up sailors would probably agree that it became a stupid race, and best result,
b-b-but .......  it's the posse of parents that like to get involved and 'strut' and argue the toss about subsequent prejudice in the decision and their little-uns coming overall ~12th-ish instead of say, ~8th (due to a very flukey result in that abandoned race);  strewth, I wish they'd go read about the really hard line Big-Ben's dad took to Ben in his early days, rather than meddle with any PC.


Edited by OultonBen - 22 Oct 13 at 12:30am
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 7:18am
The parents have no say. If the race committee was protested due to procedural issues and the race was binned entirely because of it then that is fair.

Sounds like a Oppie or Topper open meeting to me.

As for their demands to see the form I would have placed it on the noticeboard after making sure there was a copy.

With regards to the offer to run a course, take them up on it. See if they are prepared to follow through with the offer.

Looks the the PRO made a big mistake, freely puts his hands up and has taken the flak. Discounting the results of a race that was clearly unfair and influenced some competitors results is the best way forward in my opinion.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 8:50am
Agree the parents have nothing at all to do with this. As for taking up an offer of a course, I would say that if a course is wanted, get it from anyone BUT these parents. If they knew anything, they would not be interfering in the way you describe.

If a race result has to be scrapped, then it has to be scrapped. I suppose they are thinking there is some procedural mistake which means little Jonny has been done out of 8th place? I wonder why I've not put my children through the hell of the squad system...
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Posts: 49 		Post Options Post Options   Quote OultonBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 9:21am
Originally posted by jeffers

The parents have no say. ........
Sounds like a Oppie or Topper open meeting to me.
..... demands to see the form ..... on the noticeboard ......
With regards to the offer to run a course, ......

Looks the the PRO made a big mistake, freely puts his hands up and has taken the flak. Discounting the results of a race that was clearly unfair and influenced some competitors results is the best way forward in my opinion.
Jeffers,
(1) Totally agree that parents need to take more of a supportive back-view, rather than instigate argument.
(2)  Wink Not either of those Classes, but you've got the idea !
(3) The errors continued Ouch, since a visiting Class official took on the hearing as an advisory (Not permitted, since this was for Redress & advisories are only permitted for boat-on-boat) and dis-advised the request Cry. The PC was only formed much later as issues and further evidence came to light Clap.
(4) The Club actually has available on its doorstep some of the most extensively experienced RYA & ISAF officials, and almost it would be dis-respective to them to bring in pushy loose-cannon Shocked.



Edited by OultonBen - 22 Oct 13 at 9:22am
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alstorer View Drop Down
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 9:23am
whilst it definitely spunds liek an Oppie or Topper meeting, it certainly doesn;'t sound like one that the "squads" were at if there were only 13 boats! Not fair to blame "the hell of the squad system" for something that happened at a minor event outside of its sphere of influence.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 9:24am
Originally posted by OultonBen


Club race-officer made two Mistakes,...

1. Started about 30+ seconds early
2. The RO's 2nd mistake was not to abandon, ... and in a significantly veering very light breeze, earliest starters reached 1st Mark last;


Starting the race 30 seconds early is a cock up, but hey, these things happen. But, it sounds like the PRO immediately knew of the mistake, so why did he/she not immediately abandon and re-start? They may have won a lot of World Championship races but that still seems like inexperience to me, so perhaps they shouldn't be too proud to take up an offer of RO training?

I don't see what the description of early starters getting to the first mark last has to do with anything, other than to suggest that those who started early didn't get an advantage (although clearly they did!).

My rules knowledge is woefully weak - does a race begin at the start signal or 4 minutes after the prep signal?

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Posts: 49 		Post Options Post Options   Quote OultonBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 10:01am
Originally posted by Peaky


Starting the race 30 seconds early is a cock up, but hey, these things happen. But, it sounds like the PRO immediately knew of the mistake, so why did he/she not immediately abandon and re-start? ...... 
I don't see what the description of early starters getting to the first mark last has to do with anything, other than to suggest that those who started early didn't get an advantage (although clearly they did!).
...... - does a race begin at the start signal or 4 minutes after the prep signal?
Hi Peaky,
(1) PRO "thought" the problem lay with competitors OCS being unable quickly to get back in the light conditions; the team "thought" there was nothing amiss with their procedures [I'm starting a new thread on "Time Errors"];
RO team did consider a restart but all OCS competitors returned, so let it run.
(2) A race can be a valid race, even though the start was early;  start is when the signal (flag) is lowered, and attention may or may not be drawn to this by appropriate sound signal [RRS26];  however, because sailors tend to respond to the sound, RO's tend to restart if they make a sound error (not making a sound is not an error, but making a sound at the wrong time is).
It was important for the PC to take evidence that there was (a) no fault of the sailor, that (b) the race result had been made worse and that (c) the RC was at fault [RRS62.1(a)];
it was for proving 'b' that looking at the last & next-point-of-certainty principle (i.e. positions at the next mark) was a part of this process.
It is quite possible for there to be a total cock-up in procedure ('c'), and yet that there's no grounds for redress because say, the competitor started 3rd and finished 3rd, so there was no worsening in position('b').
No-one can squeeze past ..... when you're as "Chunky" as myself !
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