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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by Dougaldog

one of the core premises is that as you add sail  -or sails to a boat whilst making the hull lighter, you radically improved performance but at the expense of reducing the pool of sailors with the capability to comfortably sail the boat across the full range of wind conditions.


Yes, it was always rather strange to see that the "skiff type" boats were once hyped as the future of sailing, while all involved in the hype ignored one of the most fundamental factors involved in traditional skiffs - the use of multiple rigs.

You CAN create a skiff style boats that hacks can use across the full range of conditions. There are plenty of very average skiff sailors here in Oz, as is shown by the fact that a top Tasar can often pass about a third or a quarter of 16 Foot Skiffs, despite the fact that a well-sailed 16* is as quick or quicker than an Int 14. But although the hacks may be pretty average sailors, they can get their boats around the course across the full range of conditions because when it's windy they just switch to a smaller rig. 

Take away the multiple rigs - and they are probably only viable when you don't have a Brit-style dinghy park, when you have reliable winds and when even the hacks get thousands of dollars of support from the club each year - and the whole situation changes.

* and the top guys are very good; top Olympians and Laser sailors struggle to catch them.
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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Posts: 2003 		Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 12:47pm
agreed - and it makes it even more the ironic, that when a class is launched with multiple rigs- which would exactly facilitate what you've just described - for some reason, the folks end up splitting their fledgling numbers and creating loads of confusion!  
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2547 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by Dougaldog


My view was that having sailed both boats 'back to back' it was maybe a good thing that the D-One wasn't there as it would have 'in my opinion' shown up the harsh fact that it was simply a better boat that the RS. 

Why was that have been a good thing? I'd have thought the opposite?

It would have been good to read a comparison between the D1 & RS100 as they are endlessly compared. 

I can't stand Clarkson but I will say that he says what he thinks regardless of the implications ...

Boat reviews in sailing mags seem to have never tested a dud ... but seems the market eventually uncovers some ...
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 12:55pm
D1 V's 100 would seem like the obvious place to start a comparitive boat test. Should they throw the Vareo in there, too? When sailing the 100 and the Vareo at Minorca sailing, I found the Vareo a nicer boat, and not a huge amount slower - up to the point where it was too narrow, and I got blown away...
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 1:10pm
There is something kinda bizarre about the dinghy sailor's insistence on using the same rig in 3 knots and 30 knots... A little basic maths should tell us that's not a great way to go.
Mind you I suspect its not just the money (which ought to equalise over the long term), but also the "caught out with the wrong rig" frustration. Also IME it only really works with spinnaker boats, because otherwise you end up desperately handing on to the rag upwind and on the reaches because it hurts so much to have less area on the runs...

Now how would one do a multiple rig boat for mass consumption? My telescoping rig on the PlusPlus worked well enough, you could do that on a bigger scale and rig the boat in a standard dinghy park, and zip/slab reefs on the main are straightforward. I think you still are going to need three kites, and slab reefs on jibs might be an issue too: I don't think a zip roll up foot on a jib would be great...
So lets say a telescope mast would be 50% more than a standard one, a main with slabs say 30% more... 200% more on jibs and kites. Before you know it a practical 3 rig boat would be 30% more than a standard rig one. On the other hand you could dump all the complexity of raking rigs and that nonsense, and just have fixed length shrouds...
I suppose you are talking a boat that's 30% more to buy, all for the joy of finding oneself out with the wrong rig! I suppose class events could mandate everyone using the same size rig for each race...
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 1:16pm
You CAN create a skiff style boats that hacks can use across the full range of conditions. There are plenty of very average skiff sailors here in Oz, as is shown by the fact that a top Tasar can often pass about a third or a quarter of 16 Foot Skiffs, despite the fact that a well-sailed 16* is as quick or quicker than an Int 14. But although the hacks may be pretty average sailors, they can get their boats around the course across the full range of conditions because when it's windy they just switch to a smaller rig. 

Thank you, being a hack myself I have always wondered why more use isn't made of rig options.

Boards do it, Aussie Skiffs do it and Yachts do it.

Every one knows flat boats and smooth sails driving are faster than heeling and flogging at worst or even feathered. 

Wouldn't it be so much better to have culture where sailing was the preferred option over swimming or sitting drinking tea with half the fleet under covers.

Do we a flawed culture where we deride someone for deciding to use a smaller rig option? Surely it is good seamanship to finish a race with a rig to suit your skills and the conditions. Far more healthy that, than to bow to the strutting nonsense and talk of girls boats and either not race or race and become a liability.
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Posts: 997 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 1:20pm
Yep caught out with wrong rig is a cr@p feeling. Nothing against the skiff approach, but it is born out of (Semi to full) professionalism and the higher budgets resulting.
I think it is good seamanship to have a boat with a single set of gear that can deal with those extremes, accepting that it won't be ideal towards the extremes.
Just my tuppence worth. Mutiple rigs (not counting laser / radial etc which is different in my mind) is a massive turnoff to me)
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Daniel Holman View Drop Down
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Posts: 997 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 1:22pm
Thing is yachts reef or set sails on the same masts etc. More sails = more expense but perhaps necessary when  sailing out of sight of land and safety becomes a real concern.
If you reef a well fitted dinghy sail on most masts the set will be disastrous and also you lose the "whip" of the mast above the hounds, so its a more switchy on/off feeling, which tbh is worse than just letting the sail out or whatever.

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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 1:42pm
Probably only really affordable for us average Joe's if applied on simple unstayed rigs, so that you lose the stiff bottom rather than the responsive tip. Of course Lasers and some RSs do that anyway.

 
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by Daniel Holman

If you reef a well fitted dinghy sail on most masts the set will be disastrous and also you lose the "whip" of the mast above the hounds


IMHO that's one thing I got right with my PlusPlus.

Can't find a really good photo, but basically there was a floor stepped stump which was supported by lowers and a prod with the gooseneck on. The mast itself socketed into this with something like a 12mm stainless steel pin holding it in place. Take out the pin and the mast telescoped down to the bottom of the stump. There were alternate eyes on the shrouds and forestay, like an RS600. To stump the rig down you pulled out the pin, attached the shrounds and forestay to the higher position with fast pins, and pulled the rig tension on again. To take the rig up the opposite.

Then the sail had a slab reef with a zip to roll it up neatly.
To stump the mast down took under a minute and could be done on the beach or even tied up to a pontoon without even taking the sail down. The sail took a little bit longer to get it neat. The trouble was, as I said, if there was any chance at all of hanging onto the big rag upwind you had to do it because of the gain on the runs.



Edited by JimC - 07 Oct 13 at 2:03pm
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