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AC nationality rule

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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: AC nationality rule
    Posted: 26 Sep 13 at 2:38pm
All this nationalistic stuff is a bit unrealisitic and naive.  The funders are totally multi-national in their orientation today and pushing a simply (single) national line to the exclusion of all else is contrary to their underlying commercial orientation.   Was that also a Red Bull logo on Ainslie' helmet ?  And did I see the Toyota name on the NZ boat ?  They like Oracle do it today and shell out big time because they are multi-national entities.    

So you want to allow a bit of design to come from 'elsewhere' in the future and maybe a couple of the crew as well ...  What you are saying by doing so is that you do in fact  appreciate the practical reality but still want to waddle around with a bit of a fig-leaf with 'your' residial national flag on the front of it ! 

This is about as realistic an argument as saying Ferrari would need to field at least one Italien driver and nudge nudge 'n' % of their design people are also Italien in F1 racing ... Ferrari and the other F1 teams are multi-national albeit with the odd reference to their respective 'fig leaves' - like it or not  that how it all works today. 

If sailing at this level is going to step up a notch in overall sporting terms it is going to have to accept that things like this will inevitably change towards the truly international.  Wave a flag if you like, of course - the defender and challengers are actually based around Yacht Clubs who have to be physically somewhere but don't ever forget that it is now all about big money.

And why on earth restrict the potential earnings of exceptionally capable individuals, be they designers, builders and crew who hail from a country that has no 'local' challenger ?  If the UK was to put a team together are you prepared to exclude other EU citizens who have a reciprocal right to earn their living anywhere in the EU just as we do possibly contrary to law ?    Got a granny from the UK ?  Or are you married to a local ?  Prepared to change your nationality ?  Fine - no problems ! You will do mate !  Sounds like some are prepared to start 'lawyer feeding' yet again   .. .. but then I suppose that is an AC tradition anyway ;-)

Anyway it is still the defenders who get to dominate the event and rules  - want to chenge things chum ? ?  Much easier if you win it first ! 

Mike L.



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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 13 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by blaze720

All this nationalistic stuff is a bit unrealisitic and naive.  The funders are totally multi-national in their orientation today and pushing a simply (single) national line to the exclusion of all else is contrary to their underlying commercial orientation......
- like it or not  that how it all works today. 


Mike L.



 
I agree.
Also, I think in today's climate, it is good to be drawing in nations like the Emirates.
 
But, to follow this idea to the conclusion, why shouldn't other 'US' teams be allowed to challenge?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 13 at 3:00pm
Ellison is on record as saying its all got too expensive, as are the Kiwi's. The final was bl***y fantastic, but the AC72 event before was far from that and not many teams got there at all, so its generally accepted that costs have got to be curtailed so I don't think taking the wing out of the equation is a bad suggestion.

As for the nationalistic side, I bet the US commentators wished that they had at least one more US citizen on board to talk about!! 

If Ben is ever in the position to build a team for this event, I have no doubt that he will try to build the best team to win it, but what I am also sure about is that he will start with UK talent first and that is no bad thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Van Mentz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 13 at 3:22pm
Mike I think you are right but I am trying to focus on why I have been wry about Oracle sailing under the American flag with only one symbolic American on board. 

In recent history the Americans tarnished the event by spending much time in the courtroom to ensure the cup stayed on their soil, many including me found this distasteful and we turned away from the whole circus for years. In fact the Americans have always done what they could to stack the odds against the challenger. In the first decades of the twentieth century challengers were required to cross the Atlantic on their own keels and therefore were handicapped against the American yachts they were pitted against.

In addition at the start of this event you will remember Oracle was racing with a two point handicap because they had been caught cheating. One can therefore perhaps be forgiven for being cynical about the lack of American passports on Oracle.

I am not sure the Formula One analogy is relevant. The flag a vessel sails under is a fundamental method of identification and for this reason has a more profound symbolism than that of a Union Jack on a drivers helmet (for example). If Oracle sailed under an Oracle flag there would be no beef but she didn't, she was promoted as American through and through.

A nationality rule would clean the cup up and make it easier for new TV audiences to identify with a boat to back. If this means passports get modified so be it one cannot stop that but I believe the effort should be made.

Myles




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Post Options Post Options   Quote Thunder Road Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 13 at 3:30pm

Times have changed and they won't be going back any time soon, both soccer and formula1 have tried to cap costs, it doesn't work, the rich teams just find away round it and always will. We live in a world that craves instant excitment and sailing just joined the club. The heavily funded teams will get the best sailors, designers, technicians and equipment and they will want to try out against the best. Any well funded team owner will want the best and worry about their nationality later, would it be fair on a world class sailor from a country with no AC representation never to be able to perform on the ultimate stage?

Finn GBR16 Thunder Road.
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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 13 at 7:30pm
A nationality rule would clean the cup up and make it easier for new TV audiences to identify with a boat to back. If this means passports get modified so be it one cannot stop that but I believe the effort should be made.

Myles - Exactly the problem !  You cannot get hold of 'Nationality' without lots of detailed regulations, conditions, lobbying and lawyers and even then it will quickly descend into farce.   Do you really want to throw the (AC) lawyers even more bones than now to chew on ?

In an integrated and globalised world it is almost imposisble to be truly 'national' - if you cobble a set of rules together ways will be found round them.

Why not just accept it for what it is ? .... a facinating and now entertaining niche in our sport.   Interesting but day to day it does not make too much difference to anyone else.

Horse racing is hardly fair either is it ?   It is also like F1 and is also much more global.  Got lots of money and you can purchase the best ... and nationality stuff is at best secondary.  Big countries will also always be nearer to having everything 'in house' as well as being the base of more large corporations (ie sources of money).  In additon would it be right to eliminate all those people from the minor sailing countries from any involvement however capable ?     Oracle arguably got the best people and made choices regardless of nationality.   Choices presumably made on merit.  Patriotisn is what patriotism does ...

If ever there is a real challenge from these shores ... and maybe if Mr Ainslie does become the driving force behind it I hope he also insists on an underlying merit basis to ideas and recruiment ... great if it is also 'local' but that should be incidental.   'Not invented here' (or maybe born here) would be the kiss of death at this level - the realist knows there is little room for sentiment at the pinnacle.   US citizens and its successful corporations may wave the flag in a dramatic manner but their actions are frequently much more global ... and as rational as they need to be. 

Now back to basics ... what the weather doing this weekend and next !

Mike L.

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winging it View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 13 at 8:07pm
Let's face it, if a nationality rule were in force now no Brits would have had a look in this time round!
the same, but different...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 13 at 8:51pm
The holders, and challengers, are all yacht clubs aren't they?  So the club will have a nationality from its location, but you can't start imposing nationality rules onto yacht clubs.  Personally I'm fine with it as it is.  I want to see good racing, and if a British yacht club puts an entry in I would support that, regardless of the nationality of the designers, support crew, sailors etc.  It doesn't seem to be a problem with football clubs - just look at the number of foreigners in the premier league.
What could possibly go wrong?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 13 at 9:00pm
Originally posted by winging it

Let's face it, if a nationality rule were in force now no Brits would have had a look in this time round!

Not so sure about that.... The problem with nationality rules are that they are so often, and easily, flouted; cue Pacific Islanders playing rugby for Australia and New Zealand, dozens of examples of 'home nations' players switching alegencies between Eng, Ire, Scot and Wales, Zimbabwe & South African "England" cricketers... And that's not even getting into athletics, horse racing / riding etc etc etc etc...

Besides which if the recent history of the AC tells us only one thing it's that there are many ways for rich people to hire sufficient "qualified opinion makers" to muddle, mix and frankly fudge even the 'clearest' of rules.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 13 at 11:16pm
It's a unique event once every few years.
Let them make their own rules and it's your choice to watch it or not.
There are plenty of events with sensible rules, but somehow they're not the same....
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