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Ruscoe View Drop Down
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Posts: 1514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: D-One - open sailmakers?
    Posted: 05 Sep 13 at 11:31am
Originally posted by yellowwelly

Well if Jim and Taxi were sailing them that would be very interesting... two more boats in the West Midlands, coupled with Russ, Charlie and Jon within spitting distance.... all you'd need is a pint somewhere on a cold winter and a collective decision on where to sail next year.
James we will already have nearly 10 boats at Oxford over the winter, almost certainly at least 5 out every week maybe more.  Nick Craig is joing us as well.  W/L racing, great banter, great food and very reasonably priced.  Come down one day and have a go. 

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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Posts: 2003 		Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 13 at 11:38am
great stuff mate.... I will definitely take you up on that, I've been considering joining Oxford as well as Draycote next year anyway, they run some slalom windsurf racing which is something I really want to have a go at too. 
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Ruscoe View Drop Down
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Posts: 1514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 13 at 11:38am
Originally posted by RS400atC

Either way is valid.
Personally I am disillusioned with the SMOD sails approach due to cost and quality in some classes.
But there is a fair point that a lot of people have bought into the D-1 class on the basis of it being a SMOD with all the sails the same, are they going to be unhappy if the fundamental basis of the class changes?
It's about people being able to vary the fullness etc to suit their weight and style, not just choice of manufacturer.
At least the D1 seems to have very nice sails to start with.
Whilst i agree with what you are saying, it would only be voted through via a democraticly.  No one is going to fudge any voting, if the international class wants it then it will be passed.  If they don't then it won't. 
 
As for fullness, different cuts etc.  As i understand it the ruleset would not allow for this.  I beleive that a sail from HD will be the same as a sail from North and P&B just with a different logo. Thats not to say that the class doesn't want to go down a different cut route (I simply do not know) to me thats another can of worms altogether, but if it was to go open then i would personally prefer their to be different sail cuts like the Phantom, Solo etc.  However i guess this would cause an issue with the weight equalisation.

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Ruscoe View Drop Down
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Posts: 1514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 13 at 11:39am
James its a mint club.  Great stretch of water, just the right size.  Very friendly (Bootscooter sails there)  they have a fairly big windsurf scene there as well.  I suspect i will stay a memeber there this year.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 13 at 11:48am
Jimbo, sounds like a solo is on the market...

Personally I can't understand why a fledgeling one design class would shoot itself in the foot by allowing different sail cuts and losing a true one design. The standard sails look very nicely cut and unless you could get the same quality considerably cheaper why cause the upset. Lets face it the only reason people seek a different cut of sail is to give themselves an advantage which is not the one design principle. I also don't understand why anyone would think that sails from different lofts would somehow be more consistent than sales from one loft.

I think that having multiple sail makes means a more expensive boat to run as there is always a new maker or a new cut and everyone thinks that they have to have hydes one year, norths the next and on and on. Ask the Streaker owner in my club who has bought half a dozen mainsails in three years!
 
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 13 at 11:59am
Originally posted by Ruscoe

.....
As for fullness, different cuts etc.  As i understand it the ruleset would not allow for this.  I beleive that a sail from HD will be the same as a sail from North and P&B just with a different logo. Thats not to say that the class doesn't want to go down a different cut route (I simply do not know) to me thats another can of worms altogether, but if it was to go open then i would personally prefer their to be different sail cuts like the Phantom, Solo etc.  However i guess this would cause an issue with the weight equalisation.
 
I would be surprised if that worked.
I would expect, even if different sailmakers were trying to make the same fullness etc, they would cut the panels slightly differently to do so.
I would also imagine the detail of the design of the North sail belongs to North?
 
Given the variation in fullness in supposedly identical sails I've seen, I would reckon a sail made for an individual by an independent maker would have a lot more control over its fullness. There would be tolerances, and each maker would be known for pushing those tolerances.
So 'brand X' might be the choice of the lighter sailor etc etc.
Not saying that's a bad thing.
 
As you say, in the end the owners should decide by vote.
but while the class is young and growing, an ethos which makes people decide to become owners (or not) should be respected to some extent.
This is something I've wittered on about in the Icon threads, people not knowing what class rule concepts they are buying into in the early days.
 
Anyway, in my view the D1 is a nice boat with good sails already, so going multi maker would not rock the boat ever so much. IMHO!
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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Posts: 2003 		Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 13 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by SimonW99

Jimbo, sounds like a solo is on the market...
 

no chance, the reason for looking at OSC was for windsurfing reasons.  The D-One is a boat I might consider getting in the future though- along with an IC, Finn, OK and Contender....   

I can't say I enjoyed last night's race in the Solo much though, but that wasn't the boat's fault and no boat would be fun in that!

FWIW opening up the sailmaker could make it more interesting for me though.  I'm with Winging It - different cuts can suit different sailing styles, and at D-One new boat prices a couple of hundred quid variation in the sail price is nothing.... if it's a bit too pricey, then don't buy a wing bag or something.  

Although I do accept it makes the potential of a costly mistake all the more real.  I certainly didn't feel I got on with my Phantom sail awfully well- no reason to doubt it's quality though, it was cleaning up on the circuit at the time, just 'not for me'.
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 13 at 12:55pm
This is something I've wittered on about in the Icon threads, people not knowing what class rule concepts they are buying into in the early days .... blah blah bla.

Oh come on .... that is hardly fair - it is some of the owners who are lobbying here !  They have contributed greatly to the boats developement and as a manufacturer why the hell would we not listen to them now ?  There have been a great many changes 'imposed' on some of the well known SMODs  without too much discussion with owners by some makers.   Sail cut changes, material changes, hardware changes and modifications are very common. 

So builders are now to be condemned if we listen to owners and damned if we ignore them !  You simply cannot have it both ways.   Your own preferred class is hardly the stongest example in comparison here whatever the point you might be making.  I'm delighted you like your class, good luck to you and long may your love affair continue - we are all happy for you on that one.  But why oh why keep having a pop at Icon ?  You are not going to try one, or buy one so let those who do want to get involved get on with it.  It might be a shock but just perhaps they do know what they want - we don't necessarily which is exactly why we do listen....

Rant over ... time to start thinking about the IOS race !

Mike L.     
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 13 at 1:24pm
Sorry Mike, it was not meant as a pop at the Icon, just a look at the dynamics (probably wrong word) of setting up new classes, of which the icon is a prominent example on here.
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Contender443 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1211 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Contender443 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 13 at 1:32pm
I guess this is coming from thre current owners who may well have sailed boats such as the Finn or Contender where they have freedom of choice.
 
As far as I am concerned my contract with the builder ends when I hand my cheque over. Then it should be up to me what I do with it after that point and I want freedom of choice. The builder (in my opinion) should have no more input into the class association than I do as an individual - apart from the initial stages where they are helping to build the class. 
Bonnie Lass Contender 1764
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