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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05 Aug 13 at 6:10pm
Originally posted by Ruscoe

However is a gybe considered to be when the white sails cross the boat or when the spinnaker is reset on new leg? 
[snip]
One thing I would disagree with is how was the damage caused by boat A?  No physical contact,  sure a gybe was forced on boat B, how would a supposed 'Crash Gybe' knacker a kite? 


Get thee to the definitions section of the rule book for gybe...

But, especially when you get to bigger or more delicate boats, there are all sorts of things that can break if you have to crash gybe... For example I normally had 3mm or 4mm ply sidedecks on my Cherubs, and if you bashed it hard with an elbow or knee you could do damage. No problem with normal sailing, but although I never did it I can imagine if I had to crash gybe maybe I could slip and crunch, hole in the deck.

In that case I reckon the damage would be entirely down to the boat that made me crash gybe, and heck, they can damn well pay up.



Edited by JimC - 05 Aug 13 at 6:11pm
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Lukepiewalker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1341 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 13 at 9:02pm
The fact that a boat required to keep clear is out of control does not entitle her to exoneration for breaking a rule of Part 2. When a right-of-way boat becomes obliged by
rule 14 to ‘avoid contact . . . if reasonably possible’ and the only way to do so is to crash-gybe, she does not break the rule if she does not crash-gybe.


Edited by Lukepiewalker - 05 Aug 13 at 9:03pm
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 13 at 2:51am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Ruscoe

However is a gybe considered to be when the white sails cross the boat or when the spinnaker is reset on new leg? 


Get thee to the definitions section of the rule book for gybe...



Fair darts Jim, You'll look for a long time to find 'tacking' or 'gybing' in the definitions. They went in 1995. Their meanings are now their common English, or nautical meanings.

What matters, for the purposes of the rules is what tack a boat is on (at any instant): to get to this we look at the definition of Tack, Starboard or Port, which takes us back to the definition of Leeward and Windward, which talks about 'the side on which her mainsail lies'.

Right of way transitions in tacks are 'buffered' by rule 13 While Tacking.

Transitions in gybes are instantaneous (except in Match Racing). You can tell when the gybe is complete, but not when it starts.




Edited by Brass - 06 Aug 13 at 2:55am
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 13 at 3:07am
Originally posted by Ruscoe
[snip


One thing I would disagree with is how was the damage caused by boat A?  No physical contact,  sure a gybe was forced on boat B, how would a supposed 'Crash Gybe' knacker a kite? 


Case 110

...Contact is not necessary for one boat to cause injury or physical damage to another.
...
Question 2
Must contact between the boats occur in order for redress to be granted
under rule 62.1(b)?

Answer 2
No. A boat that suffers injury to a member of her crew or physical damage while acting to avoid contact with a boat that has broken a rule of Part 2 may be entitled to redress if the injury or damage is found to have made her score significantly worse and was not her fault.


Damage to a kite can happen pretty easily in an involuntary gybe: pole and a foot or so of the kite tack digs in the water, loads up big time and the kite lets go around the tack reinforcing. The pole then
then bends L shaped around the leeward shrouds, for bonus points taking them out on the way. Likewise, boat bucketing around through the gybe, bow heroically manages to get the pole off, only to stick it right through the kite, or simply that your light kite that you have been nursing on the dead run just explodes or flogs itself to death when you round up into the broach.

Sure a genius helmsman might have kept it under control better, but as I said, I'd have no difficulty saying the other boat 'caused' the damage.
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Hitcher View Drop Down
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Posts: 38 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Hitcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 13 at 11:00pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Ruscoe

However is a gybe considered to be when the white sails cross the boat or when the spinnaker is reset on new leg? 


Get thee to the definitions section of the rule book for gybe...



Fair darts Jim, You'll look for a long time to find 'tacking' or 'gybing' in the definitions. They went in 1995. Their meanings are now their common English, or nautical meanings.

What matters, for the purposes of the rules is what tack a boat is on (at any instant): to get to this we look at the definition of Tack, Starboard or Port, which takes us back to the definition of Leeward and Windward, which talks about 'the side on which her mainsail lies'.

Right of way transitions in tacks are 'buffered' by rule 13 While Tacking.

Transitions in gybes are instantaneous (except in Match Racing). You can tell when the gybe is complete, but not when it starts.


I'm not sure I can think of a situation where the rules ever need to know when a gybe starts though? 
As you say, a gybe is instantaneous, so it starts the instant before the boat is on the new tack and the gybe completed. 
So in this case the boat is on port and bearing away at a RoW leeward boat until the moment it is on starboard aiming at it and out of control.
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 13 at 12:30pm
Another formulation:

If a boat is obliged to perform an unseamanlike manouevre by a another boat that should keep clear or give room then the relevant rule has been broken. If in the course of the unseamanlike manoeuvre a boat suffers damage or injury tihen the appropriate penalty for the infringing boat is to retire as soon as she becomes aware of the damage.

When is a gybe unseamalike - probably when it has to be performed immediately, without the normal (for the boat) preparation.
Gordon
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