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Near collision whilst broaching
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jsluke View Drop Down
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Posts: 8 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jsluke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Near collision whilst broaching
    Posted: 03 Aug 13 at 5:27pm

Boat A is on port tack heading directly downwind under Spinnaker.

Boat B is also on port tack and heading downwind under Spinnaker.

Boat B approaches Boat A from astern and more than 2 boat lengths to leeward.  She establishes an overlap and closes on Boat A.

Boat A is ready to keep clear of Boat B, however she suddenly broaches and crash gybes onto Starboard.  She is out of control throughout the broach and at one point looks like she is about to T-bone Boat B.  Boat B crash gybes to avoid the collision and in the process damages her spinnaker.

Boat B protests Boat A for not giving her the time and opportunity to stay clear when gybing onto Starboard.

Boat A does not deny any of the facts but simply states that she was out of control.

Would Boat B win the protest?

Thanks.

James.
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Lukepiewalker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1341 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 13 at 11:11pm
Yes.

Case 99 seems to be the nearest in the casebook.
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Andymac View Drop Down
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 13 at 2:10pm
Originally posted by Lukepiewalker

Yes.

Case 99 seems to be the nearest in the casebook.
 
As Luke says.
 
Being out of control does not exonerate a boat from its obligations.
Whilst there may not have been any physical contact between the two boats, for P to undertake an uncontrolled crash gybe and in doing so damaging its spinnaker to avoid a collision indicates that S' change of course did not give P sufficient opportunity to keep clear in the context of the rules.

Addendum; Rule 15 / rule 16.1 would apply.


Edited by Andymac - 05 Aug 13 at 11:01am
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laser193713 View Drop Down
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Posts: 889 		Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 13 at 9:30am
Should S have to retire for causing serious damage? Or is that only the case in a collision?
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 13 at 11:54am
If a boat KNOWS she broke a rule she MUST take a penalty (Basic Principles - Sportsmanship and the Rules [not a rule, by the way])

If she knows she broke rule and in the incident, caused serious damage or injury, her penalty shall be to retire, that is she cannot take a turns or scoring penalty (rule 44.1( b ).

If a boat does not KNOW that she broke a rule she is under no obligation to take any penalty, and it is up to another boat or a race or protest committee to make a valid protest if they wish the boat to be penalised (rules 64.1 and A5)
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Ruscoe View Drop Down
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Posts: 1514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 13 at 1:46pm
But if boat B has the ability to complete its 'Crash gybe' then surely it had time and oportunity to complete the manovure?  The fact the kite was damaged may be for a number of reasons.  How can this be proved to be boats A's faultif there was no contact?

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laser193713 View Drop Down
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Posts: 889 		Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 13 at 2:14pm
What if this happened in the TDF... would anyone retire then?  Wink

Now, I will put my feet up, grab a beer and observe the chaos!  Beer
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 13 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by Ruscoe

But if boat B has the ability to complete its 'Crash gybe' then surely it had time and oportunity to complete the manovure?  The fact the kite was damaged may be for a number of reasons.  How can this be proved to be boats A's faultif there was no contact?

I've previously said I don't like the term 'crash gybe' because it's slangy and carries no precise meaning.

I think, however, in this case it means, clearly enough, a gybe 'all standing', with spinnaker pole out the wrong side of the boat, toe of the pole and tack of the spinnaker in the water and so on: couldn't, by any stretch, be called 'seamanlike'.

If there was no room to do anything other than that, to avoid a serious collision, then A did not give room to keep clear in a seamanlike manner.

Likewise, I would have no difficulty in concluding that damage to B's kite was caused by A breaking the rules.

Understand that this is all 'hypothetical' based on words on the internet, and in a real protest hearing, the protest committee would be looking very carefully at evidence about how close, how strong the wind was, where and how the spinnaker was damaged.
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mongrel View Drop Down
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Posts: 304 		Post Options Post Options   Quote mongrel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 13 at 3:48pm
Brass, YOU ARE THE MAN/WOMAN when it comes to rules, another excellent post! Clap
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Ruscoe View Drop Down
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Posts: 1514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 13 at 4:37pm

Brass, I agree.  I also hate the term Crash gybe, hence my post really.  A gybe to me is the complete maneuver otherwise it’s a major change of direction!  However is a gybe considered to be when the white sails cross the boat or when the spinnaker is reset on new leg?  Genuine question and one I should really know the answer to.  Also how do you define a seamanlike manner, could this protest be a result of someone’s inability to complete the gybe correctly (user error)  we have all been there even when not under pressure.

 

One thing I would disagree with is how was the damage caused by boat A?  No physical contact,  sure a gybe was forced on boat B, how would a supposed 'Crash Gybe' knacker a kite?  In the case of boat A's insurance I would be pretty miffed.  It would also be interesting to hear from insurance companies to understand their view points.

 

But agree with Mongrel...Brass, you really are a great source of rule interpretation.  Thanks for sharing.

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