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sprayblond View Drop Down
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Posts: 13 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sprayblond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Wasting time
    Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 1:55pm
So, any judges here? How would you view a protest under rule 2 against a sailor who sailed back and forth to pass time so there could be "no more races"  and he would win the series. 

It differs from case 78 in that this is essentially a play against RC ather than against a competitor. Other sports have rules for this.. "passive play" or the audience throwing half eaten hot dogs at the players....
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 3:25pm
Is there actually a rule that says you cannot start race 3 before all the stragglers have finished race 2?
 
Or race 2 could be abandoned in order to start race 3 within the limit.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 3:35pm
Unlike some sports such as swimming, sailing does not have a 'must race to win' rule.
 
Case 78 makes it clear that a boat may sail strategically in any way that gives her a 'reasonable chance of her tactics benefitting her'.
 
A protest committee considering a protest alleging a breach of rule 2 will consider all the evidence and argument brought by the parties in respect of each and every 'ingredient' of rule 2.
 

A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles have been violated.

 
Ingredients are:
  1. Is the protestee 'a boat or her owner'?
  2. Does the protest relate to 'competing'?
  3. What 'principle or principles of sportsmanship or fair play' are alleged not to have been complied with?
  4. What evidence is there that the alleged 'principles' are 'recognised'?
  5. What evidence is there that these 'principles' have been violated or not complied with?
  6. Oops:  omitted this one:  Does the evidence 'clearly establish' that these 'principles'
    have been violated

is A protest committee considering a rule 2 protest would also normally consider the degree of 'intentionality' or mental state of the protestee.

Let me ask you again:  What  'recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play' you think the boat may have violated in the scenario you have in mind?


Edited by Brass - 30 Jul 13 at 12:20am
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sprayblond View Drop Down
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Posts: 13 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sprayblond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 5:29pm
I copied this from RYA regarding rule 2: I would say gamesmanship is broken. If you by drawing out time gain an advantage, you do not settle the competition in a fair way, i.e. by sailing as well as you can in as many races as possible. 
----------------
A1: The recognised principles of sportsmanship 
and fair play include the following (which is a 
non-exhaustive list): 
• Respect forthe rules
Breaches of this principle include: 
• Knowingly breaking a rule and not taking a penalty
• Deliberately breaking a rule
• Intentionally breaking a rule to gain an unfair
advantage 
• Collusion with another competitor to ignore rule
breaches whichmay aggrieve or disadvantage other
competitors 
• Gamesmanship, defined as behaviour of
questionable fairness but notstrictlyillegal tactics
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 9:10pm
Sprayblond,

That's interesting.....one view would put that at odds with Case 78 as illustrated by the example above.

In another view one might say that its a fair tactic in accordance with Rule 78.....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 9:31pm
Let me ask you again:  What  'recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play' you think the boat may have violated in the scenario you have in mind?



I would have hoped/thought/expected that "fair play" includes giving your competitors a chance to beat you on the race track in a scheduled race. If that opportunity is denied you through questionable tactics (and they have been found to be questionable, because at least one person has questioned them), then that is "no play" , not "fair play".
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 13 at 4:46am
Originally posted by RS400atC

Is there actually a rule that says you cannot start race 3 before all the stragglers have finished race 2?
 
No there isn't.
 
In the absence of some special provision it would be pretty rude of the Race Officer to deprive a competitor of the chance to finish, however unfavourably.
 
But where rapid-fire races are intended there is usually a SI (Rule L15.2) that says
 
15.2 Boats failing to finish within _____ after the first boat sails the course and finishes will be scored Did Not Finish without a hearing. This changes rules 35, A4 and A5.
 
This effectively gives the RO a licence to go into sequence once it's clear that all remaining unfinished boats will be scored DNF and allowing enough time for them to reach the starting area.
 
Originally posted by RS400atC

Or race 2 could be abandoned in order to start race 3 within the limit.
Rule 32 specifically provides that the race committee may shorten the course so that other scheduled races can be sailed, but does not provide for a race to be abandoned for that reason.
 
Abandoning a race is always a last resort.  Abandoning deprives successful boats of their results.
 
It's a slippery slope:  the race officer abandons a race, then he or she keeps on abandoning the race until he or she gets a result that he or she likes.
 
Rule 32 allows a race committee to abandon a race for 'any ... reason directly affecting the fairness of hte competition', but, taking the example above of four entrants, 3 OCS, but still racing, one boat properly started dragging the chain, that one boat is coming first in the race:  to abandon the race would be deprive that boat, which has not broken any rule of her first place score.
 
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 13 at 5:53am
Originally posted by sprayblond

I copied this from RYA regarding rule 2: I would say gamesmanship is broken. If you by drawing out time gain an advantage, you do not settle the competition in a fair way, i.e. by sailing as well as you can in as many races as possible. 
----------------
A1: The recognised principles of sportsmanship 
and fair play include the following ...
• Respect forthe rules
Breaches of this principle include: ...
  • Gamesmanship, defined as behaviour of questionable fairness but not strictly illegal tactics
Originally posted by Peaky

... questionable tactics (and they have been found to be questionable, because at least one person has questioned them), ...
 
Ok, Spraybloond, good get, and those racing under the RYA may feel obliged to follow this.
 
However, I think this is more a product of the RYA Marketing Department's Code of Niceness than careful consideration of the rules and how the game is played.  I note that the RYA was unable to get the agreement of its Racing Rules experts to put this into an Appeal, so that it would have some authority.
 
I think reference to 'questionable tactics that break no rule' is inconsistent with important aspects of rule 2 as follows:
  1. Rule 2 is an harsh rule:  the penalty for breaking it is a non-excludable disqualification:  one might expect that breaches of rule 2 would be 'greater than' and 'better proved' than breaches of ordinary rules.
  2. The requirement is that breach of the 'recognised principles' must be 'clearly established'.  That is, the rule itself expresses a higher standard of proof than for any other rule, except rule 69.  Arguably the requirement is 'comfortable satisfaction', as for rule 69, or maybe something in between ordinary balance of probabilities and comfortable satisfaction.
  3. If the threshold of the alleged breach is that an action is no more than 'questionable', how can it proved that a violation was 'clearly established'?

I note that 'gamesmanship' of all kinds is recognised feature of all sports, be it nothing more than confident swagger around the boat park.  I think the RYA is attempting to set the bar far to high.

At the very least I would be inclined to qualify the provision by something like:

  1. other than conduct within the ambit of Case 78; and
  2. calculated to gain an unfair advantage
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Posts: 889 		Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 13 at 9:21am
Originally posted by jeffers

Do not forget that most events also have a 'stragglers' rule in their SI's which permits the PRO to finish boats that are well behind the fleet.

Most events eh? Are you sure about that?
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Posts: 13 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sprayblond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 13 at 9:24am
all else aside -  it is not something we want in the sport. The leader of the regatta reaching back and forth to make sure there will not be time for a final race. This is not racing, it is rather a play against RC. I hope somebody lodges a protest if this ever happens and that it is appealed if they lose the potest.
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