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tick View Drop Down
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Joined: 16 Nov 12
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Posts: 223 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Dinghy popularity
    Posted: 02 Jul 13 at 11:19am
There are basic rules to follow but If you are doing it right, or wrong, you should be able to work it out. We have people training for years and it makes not one jot of difference. If they enjoy training then fine but the best training for anyone who can sail but needs to improve should be, "Well what do YOU think"?

Any kid who keeps training after, say, level 2 will never be a good racer. I am hampered by old age, a non competitive nature and lack of courage. Training has nothing to do with it.
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 13 at 11:28am
Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by RS400atC


Getting people from the bottom 10% of the fleet into the middle third is important.


Whilst I agree with everything else you wrote, how is the above statement possible? Surely, even if the standard of the whole fleet improves, and the back gets closer to the front, you still have to have someone in every position...
...
 
But, you can change who is in the back 10%.
Newish people who are willing to make the effort and have the ability can leapfrog the 'casual, happy to cruise  around at the back' characters, but sometimes they need a bit of input to enable them. Then they might up their game, doing the odd open meeting or whatever.
Without that enabling boost, they will just be learning from the back markers and never leave that group, except to take up vegetable growing or something.
Also, virtually any class group is dynamic, you have people joining and people leaving. People will always move on, but the group can grow if you increase the time people stay. Losing too many people after 1-2 years seems to often be the problem?
 
OTOH, if you increase the performance of the group as a whole, as you suggest, it will become a better group and people may want to join it, so it can grow. Taken too far though, it becomes an unapproachable elite that people feel excluded from.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 13 at 11:40am
Originally posted by tick

There are basic rules to follow but If you are doing it right, or wrong, you should be able to work it out. We have people training for years and it makes not one jot of difference. If they enjoy training then fine but the best training for anyone who can sail but needs to improve should be, "Well what do YOU think"?

Any kid who keeps training after, say, level 2 will never be a good racer. I am hampered by old age, a non competitive nature and lack of courage. Training has nothing to do with it.


Even the olympic types benefit from coaches.
Life is to short to work everything out for yourself, and sometimes you need feedback from somebody looking in at you, rather than your own POV.
There are always people who don't benefit from any learning opportunity.
Maybe  they are not  receptive, maybe they are at the limit of their talent.
I'm sure the returns diminish beyond a certain amount.
 
I don't know what's in 'training beyond level 2'. I use the words training and coaching loosely.
The value of the coaching is related to the skills of the coach. You need someone who can actually race at a better level than he (or she) is coaching, not just a time-served badgeholder.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 13 at 12:00pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

You need someone who can actually race at a better level than he (or she) is coaching, not just a time-served badgeholder

So the Olympic types are wasting their time with time-served coaches who can no longer sail at that level?

I think to a good extent they are separate skills, and just because you can sail doesn't mean you can coach, and sufficient talent as a coach is probably more important than talent as a sailor. Obviously a coach needs to know what to do, but not necessarilly be able to do it...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 13 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by yellowwelly

coaching is useful.... it helps give kids a return on their £400 investment to get their DI and RI tickets....
Jimbo - former DI/RI who thoroughly loathed teaching others to sail, I opted to stack shelves in a CO-OP instead.

Glad it wasn't just me. I flogged double glazing over the phone instead!
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 13 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by RS400atC

You need someone who can actually race at a better level than he (or she) is coaching, not just a time-served badgeholder

So the Olympic types are wasting their time with time-served coaches who can no longer sail at that level?

I think to a good extent they are separate skills, and just because you can sail doesn't mean you can coach, and sufficient talent as a coach is probably more important than talent as a sailor. Obviously a coach needs to know what to do, but not necessarilly be able to do it...
 
Yes, I could have worded that better.
Coaching is a talent in itself.
In many sports the top people are coached by people who never quite made the very top as players.
 
But not just anyone with a cert in dinghy training and a few seasons club racing can be very good as a coach.
I think being able to evaluate what others are doing is often the hard bit?
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 13 at 12:22pm
Sid Howlett, Jon Emmett, both top helms, but by the look of it, better coaches, able to get the best out of the people they are helping. Mainly, I suspect, by watching from a different perspective.

Ever noticed how easy it is to spot mistakes when watching from the race hut? Can be an excellent training tool in itself.
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tick View Drop Down
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Posts: 223 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 13 at 2:27pm
Sorry I should have been more specific. I do believe in coaches to hone skill and provide discipline but time on the water and a bit of thought and basic physics is needed first......as well as the enthusiasim and desire to succeed. No training can provide that.
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Posts: 2003 		Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 13 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by Peaky

Originally posted by yellowwelly

coaching is useful.... it helps give kids a return on their £400 investment to get their DI and RI tickets....
Jimbo - former DI/RI who thoroughly loathed teaching others to sail, I opted to stack shelves in a CO-OP instead.

Glad it wasn't just me. I flogged double glazing over the phone instead!

one way to stop sailing for fun.... make it a busman's holiday.  LOL

(actually I didn't mind teaching adults so much, but there were hardly any adult groups.  Anyway, the glorified child-minding that was an L.E.A. school holiday sailing centre did my nut, and the very thought of a sunsail gig over uni holidays filled me with dread... most students I knew doing it then came back in more debt than they started with.)
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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 13 at 2:48pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Sid Howlett, Jon Emmett, both top helms, but by the look of it, better coaches, able to get the best out of the people they are helping. Mainly, I suspect, by watching from a different perspective.

Ever noticed how easy it is to spot mistakes when watching from the race hut? Can be an excellent training tool in itself.

one of the reasons I always put forward for club members doing duties, you actually get a really good view of the racing from a different perspective... or you can just sit in a rescue boat being cold & miserable too.. )
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