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RS400atC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28 Jun 13 at 8:54pm
Originally posted by Peaky

Maybe it's too subtle for you?   
As I keep saying, design progress is not just about designing faster boats, it's about boats that are faster to rig, more comfortable to sail, smoother to handle, more responsive to input, more tolerant, better looking, etc etc etc.
No boat design can tick all boxes, but I think the Icon ticks all the boxes it set out to. Maybe there are not the ones important to you, or maybe you just don't know it yet!


It's also about the sport of dinghy racing.
I'm by no means the most competitive person, but I do like to feel that the result is about how well I've sailed, not that I've bought a boat that does well some days.

Most of your boxes are pretty subjective. Some nice keelboats about that tick most of them for me.
If it's the state of the art we're thinking about, a moth hull is down to about 10kg.
Even scaled up to adult size (cube law on length?) we have a way to go.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 13 at 9:50pm
The weight scales with surface area. I'd say an Icon hull and deck has 5 or 6 times the surface area of a Moth (30% longer, 20% more freeboard, 300% width, plus a sunken cockpit rather than a box top). So the 10kg moth hull would equate to 50kg. Add on sails, spars, foils and fittings at 25kg, all up is 75kg.
The Cherub is probably the nearest thing to a 2 man moth. The 3.7m hull weighs 50kg. The Icon hull is 20% longer, which would equal 72kg. Add25kg for the rig and foils, 97kg.
The MPS weighs 44kg, and is similar length, but narrower and lower freeboard. Add 50% on the freeboard and 25% on the beam equals 80kg. Plus 25kg rig equals 105kg.
The Icon is very light by any reasonable comparison.
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scotsfinn View Drop Down
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Posts: 284 		Post Options Post Options   Quote scotsfinn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 13 at 10:06pm
Ah some reasonable thought at last - it's maybe not totally scientifically 100% without some modelling - but logical. Logic is something we don't see much of in 'ere. Thanks Peaky .

Timmus .... Your on the pace too!

How refreshing
Largs Sailing Club. D-Zero GBR 57, B14 744
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 13 at 10:06pm
Originally posted by Peaky

The Cherub is probably the nearest thing to a 2 man moth. The 3.7m hull weighs 50kg.

And has had that minimum weight since the 1950s. A similarly aspirational/challenging weight for modern construction would be around 40kg I reckon.

Edited by JimC - 28 Jun 13 at 10:07pm
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 13 at 11:33pm
Originally posted by Timmus

Originally posted by RS400atC


Well it's only my opinion, but which bits do you disagree with, or are you about to buy an icon?.

All of it unless you've sailed one!
..
 

I base my opinion on sailing against them. OK only on one occassion, but how does it go?

When the class flag drops, the bullsh*t stops?
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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Posts: 2003 		Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 13 at 9:13am
Originally posted by Timmus

Originally posted by RS400atC


Well it's only my opinion, but which bits do you disagree with, or are you about to buy an icon?.

All of it unless you've sailed one!
I couldn't give a toss really, I'm not going to get one, but I'm just sick of people trashing stuff, without even knowing WTF they are talking about.
Now then, IF, you have sailed one and then told us all that stuff, then fine, but you haven't, you've just sat there and rubbished it without actually sailing it, something that happens on this forum regularly, and it's what makes it a crock of crap.....sometimes.
IMHO
 

do I need to sail a Tera to know I'm too big for it? 


do I need to sail a moth to know it would be too much for me?  Does that mean, that it's inaccessible?  well on a personal level, yes.... does that mean the Moth is a bad boat, and the Int Moth boys should give a  f*ck towards my opinion as they fly by.. No and doubly NO.  It's all about context.


do I need to sail an Icon to know that a dangly pole adds complexity, which might add some minor iproved performance, but at the same time defeats the unique selling point I would want from one (taking a complete newb/kid who doesn't want to get that involved- I won team racing events with scratch crews in just this manner back in the day on L2s with no kite or wire- there's a place for that type of boat and imho, could transform sailing at club level to some extent)  TOO MANY SINGLEHANDERS!!!!  I also agree with RS400@C... quite frankly if you're going to make technical job of pulling the jib in, then screw it, put a kite up there instead.

If the commercial folks don't want to take the rough with the smooth of the desktop jockey review, they are quite welcome to ignore it and let the beach & results do the talking.  However as has been seen with other recent releases, this forum does seem to have some sway with boat sales- maybe it makes no difference, some boats sell, some don't and all this is is a focus group to garner real feedback.  I remember back in the early 90's several prototypes coming to our club, only one person every came back and 'told it how it was', some god awful underpowered GRP trap singlehander and he wasn't thanked for it....   quite the contrary, stand up row in the boat park after he dared to say someone's baby was a dog.  

Back then I tested a Concept 302, broke the plate, hated the foot loops, it was a pig that snorted to windward and rolled in its own sh*t down it.  But what did we say, yep, we said we thought it was great, fun, groovy baby (Austin Powers on trend at the time)... and promptly went back to our radial and full rig 'proper boats'.

At least here, we say it like we see it.... and in the main, we do it respectfully, just like RS400atC did.
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scotsfinn View Drop Down
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Posts: 284 		Post Options Post Options   Quote scotsfinn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 13 at 9:31am
Welly ...You've just proved that sometimes you do have to sail a boat ... Or you are in danger of sounding like someone who is speaking through their rear! The dangly pole is simplicity itself and sooo easy to use. It helps stabilise the boat, and yes it can be used to tweak the sail set. With skilled crews it makes life interesting and for newbies the helm can call the shots with no or little hassle.

The boat is a cracker .... Give it a go ......then when you have ... We'll enjoy your most expert opinion
Largs Sailing Club. D-Zero GBR 57, B14 744
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 13 at 9:34am
Originally posted by iGRF

 
No it's not, it's because y'all put up with their crap, and when they do make a boat down to weight, put lead in it to keep it heavy so it's in class?

Well, coming from a place where boats are normally lighter (the Sharpie has had a 90kg hull since the '50s and it's 20 feet long) I can see your point that there is an element of people accepting heavier hulls because it's the norm. 

But having minimum weights for sporting gear is very, very common. Formula 1 cars do it, racing saloons/sedans do it, bicycles do it, grand-prix Moto GP motorbikes do it, XC skis do it..... Sure, dragging around a lighter boat can be easier but the cat guys know how to move big craft easily; the F18 is heavy but easily handled due to the wheels they use.

If you don't have minimum weights then the people who don't have as much money to spend on boats and repairs are at a huge disadvantage and may as well not race. Boat will also fall apart quite often if the class is competitive enough. How does that help the sport?
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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Posts: 2003 		Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 13 at 9:39am
Originally posted by scotsfinn

Welly ...You've just proved that sometimes you do have to sail a boat ... Or you are in danger of sounding like someone who is speaking through their rear! The dangly pole is simplicity itself and sooo easy to use. It helps stabilise the boat, and yes it can be used to tweak the sail set. With skilled crews it makes life interesting and for newbies the helm can call the shots with no or little hassle.

The boat is a cracker .... Give it a go ......then when you have ... We'll enjoy your most expert opinion

And you've just proved that I don't.... 'it helps stabilise the boat'... so it's not stable already?  Okay, might as well get a N12 if it's not stable, at least there's someone to sail against.  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 13 at 9:43am
I have no problem at all with RS400atC or anyone else not being love struck by the Icon. Each to their own, and it makes for good forum discussion. A dangly pole is no harder to use than a kicker(easier, in fact), but I do accept that the perception may be of added complexity and its merits will be a personal choice. But weight is a factual thing, and therefore to score it 2/10 for lightness is a madness that needs curing! Similarly, accusations of lacking righting moment are based on ignorance (not calling anyone personally stupid, just uninformed) not opinion or, better still, fact.
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