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windshifts and luffing rights
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Reuben T View Drop Down
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Posts: 74 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Reuben T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: windshifts and luffing rights
    Posted: 26 Jun 13 at 10:38pm
 I was almost on the lay-line to a windward mark with another boat just to windward of me, I was pinching to make the mark, forcing the other boat to pinch in order to keep clear. A sudden wind-shift then meant that we were past head to wind. Because I was forcing him above the corse he would have taken had I not been there (and therefore was the reason he became effectively luffed past head to wind) should I have done turns? 

Also, if he had borne away faster when the wind-shift occurred in order not to almost tack and had made contact, would either of us had to do turns for that?
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Quagers View Drop Down
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Posts: 279 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Quagers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 13 at 2:05am
How was the overlap established? Did you have lugging rights in the first place? I assume from the tone of the question that you feel that you didnt.


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Edited by Quagers - 27 Jun 13 at 2:05am
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 13 at 4:17am

Lets leave the 'shall not sail above her proper course' limitation in rule 17 aside for a moment.

Presumably you're asking the question because you remember someone saying 'you can't luff beyond head to wind'.
 
That's a piece of somewhat inaccurate shorthand.
 
The rules analysis, for you as a leeward overlapped boat is as follows.
 
As leeward overlapped boat, the windward boat must keep clear of you (rule 11) even when you change course towards the wind, as long as when changing course you give the windward boat room to keep clear (rule 16).
 
You can change course all the way up to head to wind and this holds true, but if you, yourself pass head to wind, you become subject to rule 13 While Tacking and must keep clear of the other boat if she has not also passed head to wind.
 
This is where 'can't luff past head to wind' comes from:  you can't luff past head to wind yourself.
 
If you change course all the way up to head to wind, giving the windward boat room to keep clear, and the windward boat, having less good boat handling than you or for whatever reason passes head to wind and you don't, then the other boat becomes subject to rule 13 While Tacking and must keep clear of you as long as you have not passed head to wind yourself.
 
If you change course all the way up to head to wind then past head to wind, and the other boat also passes head to wind, (or as in the example you described, the wind flicks and puts both of you past head to wind) then you are both subject to rule 13 at the same time and the boat on the other's port side shall keep clear (rule 13, last sentence).  Remember this as 'the boat on the right is in the right'.  It means that if you both started out on starboard tack, with you to leeward, and both came up and pass head to wind, you will be on the other boat's port side and will be required to keep clear.  If you had started out on port tack, with you to leeward, and both came up and passed head to wind, then you will be 'on the right and in the right' and the other boat will be requried to keep clear.
 
Rule 17 is a limitation rule.  It says that if you became overlapped within two of your hull lengths, and from clear astern, you shall not sail above your proper course.  You can certainly sail above close hauled, pinching or luffing, up to the course you need to fetch the mark, but no higher.
 


Edited by Brass - 27 Jun 13 at 5:25am
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Reuben T View Drop Down
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Posts: 74 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Reuben T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 13 at 9:03am
Originally posted by Brass

 
 
If you change course all the way up to head to wind then past head to wind, and the other boat also passes head to wind, (or as in the example you described, the wind flicks and puts both of you past head to wind) then you are both subject to rule 13 at the same time and the boat on the other's port side shall keep clear (rule 13, last sentence). 


does this mean that the main rules issue in this situation is who has to keep clear after the wind shift rather than why they were effectively tacked by the wind shift? Would I have been exonerated if I had been protested?
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 13 at 10:14am
Rules usually depend on the positions and points of sailing of boats, not why or how they got there.
 
It doesn't matter whether the wind shifts to put you past head to wind or you steered there in a steady wind:  when you pass head to wind rule 13 applies.
 
If you both started out on starboard tack, with you to leeward, and both came up and pass head to wind, you would be on the other boat's port side and would be required to keep clear.
 
If you had started out on port tack, with you to leeward, and both came up and passed head to wind, then you would be 'on the right and in the right' and the other boat would be required to keep clear.
 
Question then is, did the give way boat fail to keep clear, that is, did the right of way boat need to change course to avoid the other boat?
 
Whether rule 17 is in effect is also relevant.
 
Did you originally become overlapped within two of your hull lengths, and from clear astern of the other boat?
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Posts: 397 		Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 13 at 10:10pm
I totally agree with Brass.
Rule 17 prevents you from going above close hauled until it cannot be argued that going higher is your proper course. This would be to shoot the mark if you are fetching it, or past the lay line if you need to tack. Before that you are restricted. In each case you have to give windward boat opportunity to keep clear.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 13 at 12:25am
Originally posted by Reuben T

 I was almost on the lay-line to a windward mark with another boat just to windward of me, I was pinching to make the mark, forcing the other boat to pinch in order to keep clear. A sudden wind-shift then meant that we were past head to wind. Because I was forcing him above the corse he would have taken had I not been there (and therefore was the reason he became effectively luffed past head to wind) should I have done turns? 

Also, if he had borne away faster when the wind-shift occurred in order not to almost tack and had made contact, would either of us had to do turns for that?
I'll have another crack at this and try to answer your specific questions.
 
First, I assume that you are actually looking at a copy of the rules?  If not, here they are:
 
 
Rule 17 On the Same Tack;  Proper Course applies if  you became overlapped on the same tack within two of your hull lengths, and from clear astern of the other boat.  If it applies it requires that you shall not sail above your proper course.
 
I discussed the situation when rule 17 did NOT apply in previous posts.
 
Let's suppose that rule 17 DID apply, and there you were, pinching hard to fetch the mark.
 
The wind then shifted suddenly so that you could no longer fetch the mark on the tack you were on.
 
I'm quite happy that your new proper course is to tack and that up until you pass head to wind you are not sailing above your proper course.
 
The instant that you pass head to wind, you are no longer 'on the same tack' as you were when rule 17 began to apply and rule 17 no longer applies, and you no longer have any proper course limitation.
 
So if the wind shifts as you described, you never break rule 17, and the rule 16/13 analysis I posted before applies.
 
Bottom line is, in the original situation as you described, on analysis, it is irrelevant whether rule 17 appleis or not.
 
You then asked 'if he had borne away faster when the wind-shift occurred in order not to almost tack and had made contact' would either of us have broken a rule?
 
If W had borne away faster and not passed head to wind, and made contact:
If you also had managed to bear away and not pass head to wind, rule 11 (Windward/Leeward) continues to apply, W has not kept clear of you and W has broken rule 11, and possibly rule 14 (avoiding contact).
 
IF, on the other hand, you had not managed to bear away and had passed head to wind, rule 13 applies, you were the boat that passed head to wind, and were required to keep clear of W, HOWEVER, in this case
W is also subject to rules 15 (because she acquired right of way other than because of your actions) and 16 (as a right of way boat changing course) and must initially give you room to keep clear and continue to give you room to keep clear while ever she is changing coruse.
 
There was contact, therefore you were not given room to keep clear.
  • you did not keep clear therefore you broke rule 13
  • W did not give you room to keep clear therefore W broke either or both of rules 15 and 16.
  • W, by breaking rule 15/16 compelled you to break rule 13:  you shall be exonerated for breaking rule 13 in accordance with rule 64.1 Penalties and Exoneration.
  • W did not give you room to keep clear therefore it was not reasonably possible for you to avoid contact and you did not break rule 14.
  • A protest committee may conclude that it was reasonably possible for W to have avoided contact and that W broke rule 14, but if there was no damage or injury, would exonerate W for breaking rule 14 in accordance with rule 14( b ).

 

 
 
 


Edited by Brass - 28 Jun 13 at 1:41am
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 13 at 9:21am
You know, I have been sailing and using the rules all my life, but it still took several reads through that to figure out who would have been in the right or wrong depending exactly what happened when.

Given that 2 people's view of what happened will be different -  "you were past head to wind" compared to "I bore off before I was head to wind" in the protest room, with neither lying, is it any wonder that at club level all but the most basic rule breaks are dealt with with a shrug?

And that is before you have to worry about how you got into the position in the 1st place.


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Reuben T View Drop Down
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Posts: 74 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Reuben T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 13 at 9:57am
thanks Brass that makes sense


Originally posted by Rupert

You know, I have been sailing and using the rules all my life, but it still took several reads through that to figure out who would have been in the right or wrong depending exactly what happened when.

Given that 2 people's view of what happened will be different -  "you were past head to wind" compared to "I bore off before I was head to wind" in the protest room, with neither lying, is it any wonder that at club level all but the most basic rule breaks are dealt with with a shrug?

And that is before you have to worry about how you got into the position in the 1st place.

Thats what makes sailing beautifully complex at times
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 13 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by Reuben T

thanks Brass that makes sense


Originally posted by Rupert

You know, I have been sailing and using the rules all my life, but it still took several reads through that to figure out who would have been in the right or wrong depending exactly what happened when.

Given that 2 people's view of what happened will be different -  "you were past head to wind" compared to "I bore off before I was head to wind" in the protest room, with neither lying, is it any wonder that at club level all but the most basic rule breaks are dealt with with a shrug?

And that is before you have to worry about how you got into the position in the 1st place.

Thats what makes sailing beautifully complex at times


Don't get me wrong Reuben - I love the complexity of sailing, and am nearly as happy debating rule oddities as I am picking the right shift, but I can see that it is somewhat offputting to many people.
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