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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The RS100 Owners Thread
    Posted: 16 May 13 at 5:36pm
I have tried a Blaze Mike.  Several times, nice enough boat, but not for me.  Not sure a Halo would float my boat, so to speak either.

Well we figured that one out !    Enjoy what you have got of course... seriously.   Promote your own class by all means but maybe it is best to stick to that and cut out the oblique references to 'other' classes and their efforts to meet their owners wishes.   I hope the 100 evolves exactly as the owners want now - in fact just as the Blaze has done over the last decade and a half. 

Halo is a minority interest WITHIN the Blaze class ... 'heavies' have them but if you are not the right weight you will be slower than with a Blaze rig.  They race at club level mostly but most also race Blaze rigs in the circuit and championships.  Is there a problem with that ?  I see it as a possible parallel to ... erm 'some other' classes.  

Hell, I've just had a thought ...  is the 100 now also going the same sort of way ? ..  If so well done that class !

Mike L.
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 13 at 6:04pm
Originally posted by blaze720

Promote your own class by all means but maybe it is best to stick to that and cut out the oblique references to 'other' classes and their efforts to meet their owners wishes.  

so it doesn't warrant discussions in the public domain.... maybe if the class had adopted the carbon stick light years ago then others would have joined.  

perhaps if they'd adopted a kite this very thread wouldn't exist... you'd have blown the comp (vareo / MX ray) out of the water!!!!

Now by saying that, I'm not saying you're wrong... christ knows the sailing world are a conservative bunch, a bird in hand n' all that; and I remain utterly unconvinced that a hiker with a kite for club sailing RTC is even worth the aggro having owned them now... but to say we all have 'stick to our own classes' before commenting on something would offer a very bland, and rather redundant communal meeting place... 
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 13 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by pondmonkey

If there's no 'controversy' then we can just assume there's no requirement to tighten up the wording, nor any requirement to seek a re-draft before publishing it?  'Controversy' is strong word of course, and you won't find me saying that in my recent posts.  I've just said the fleets will split.  Which they will, if you read the wording of the proposed change.

I guess the truth is the class majority on 8.4s has spoken- they want the 8.4 fleet to be one fleet on its own, hence the proposal.  If the fatties don't move across, so what... better to have a race of 30 on the 8.4 rig than 40 in the 'RS100' fleet.   That's their decision of course, one facilitated by a lack of control over these (inevitable) issues from the outset.

As for the 7.4 sailors- well they didn't even get a consideration.  I guess their arms were too short to be seen at the AGM.    God knows what would happen if someone pulled together another rig- maybe a 9 meter 'coastal' rig to bridge the gap????

I don't really care that much, it just seems a shame to look in from the outside and see the class self destruct.  They're certainly not growing judging from the entries in the events and effectively cutting the class down to the 8.4 rig will certainly not bolster its image at club level- having its arse handed to it by Lasers around the cans!!!!

Let us not forget the amazing positivity there was when this was launched- now it's just another boring class association bogged down with factions rather than growing and embracing new faces, even podgy ones that can hold their beer...

This quote pretty much summed up my view at the time too.  Times change.  That's not controversy, it's just life.

Originally posted by ChrisC

I would much prefer this arrangement - both fleets racing together. 
Ultimately it is going to be the only way to truly test if the rig sizes actually 
perform differently in the same conditions - plus it will make for much 
better big fleet racing. 



 Good to see all these views from non-100 owners, and James doing his usual sterling stirring job. It's nice to know you are all so worried about us. (and the Blaze too of course)

Now if we can knock a few myths into touch.

Firstly, far from having my arse handed to me by Lasers RTC, it's the other way around. Even on Frensham my PYS results are totally comparable against the lasers to that I would achieve if I sailed my own laser. I beat the guys I regularly beat and its tight against the guys I am close to. Not occasionally, but consistently, week in week out. Even with the latest PYS increased differential. So please don't judge everyone by your own standards James! My guess is that we are also sailing the boats far more effectively than 3 years ago when we first took delivery.

Secondly, there never have been that many (consistently) travelling 10.2s. There is a strong 10.2 fleet at HISC, but they don't travel. Since Paul and Sam, both 10.2 boys, left RS and the fleet we've probably gained a new regular 10.2 and lost one. The 10.2s have always been in the minority. I can think of a couple of others who have decided they prefer sailing the 8.4, probably because they were under weight (or height) for the 10.2

But what has become clear is that a 10.2 sailed by a 92kg sailor will beat an 8.4 sailed equally well by someone of 80kg in nearly all conditions - and this is reflected in the PYS. In 8 knots of breeze, the difference is significant. All this is hardly a surprise, indeed it would be a miracle if it were not thus.

But it does create anomalies in the results and attitudes to them. Some sailors are n't bothered which rig is ahead of them, some see each rig as a different race. I don't see this a calamitous - and it's easy to fix by presenting the results both ways and us continuing to start together. Each sailor can then hang their hat on which ever set they prefer - either is fine by me. If we get to 20 of each rig type, then will be the time to split starts perhaps. But there will always be ebbs and flows. At the recent Pwllheli Laser Qualifier, there were 26 standard rigs and 82 radials. 

Personally, I don't think the proposal is quite right yet (witness silence viz 7.2s for example) but at least it recognises the issue and is trying to deal with it fairly. Trying to perfect that on a boat than covers a crew weight range of 30kg and delivers such amazing sailing is far from an action of tearing the class apart. Are we not allowed to adapt and evolve?

Finally for now, for info, RS tell me that overseas, the vast majority of sales are of the 10.2 rig - perhaps they have less wind on average than us in those locations! And I will continue to use mine and try and get the rig 18 inches further up beyond the wind shadow of the weeds trees
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Ruscoe View Drop Down
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Posts: 1514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 13 at 6:44pm
Originally posted by blaze720

  Promote your own class by all means but maybe it is best to stick to that and cut out the oblique references to 'other' classes and their efforts to meet their owners wishes.  

Wow.  Back up a little!  I was taking the Mick.  Just around the moaning on both class forums about the changes within the classes!  I have not promoted my class in this thread as I have a commercial interest and, let’s be fair the RS100 owners thread is not the place to promote the D1 now is it?!

 

Who is it best for?  Certainly not for me or 90% of the other forum contributors.  So why should I cut it out?  Both the Blaze and the 100 have had the exact same criticism as to the proposed or passed rule changes.  I have no agenda or axe to grind with either class to be honest.  in fact if you jump of the high horse and read my posts again you will see I complemented the class on the introduction of the carbon mast.    The Blaze obviously satisfy its niche, which is fine, but please don’t get all defensive because I didn't really like it.  Each to everyone’s own, if we all liked the same thing it would be a very boring world. But to say its developed exactly how the owners want contradicts some of the forum traffic.  But hey it was a democratic vote and all.

 

As mentioned previously I hope the 100 & the Blaze for that matter fulfill their owners wishes and expectations.  The more people on the water racing the better for the sport.  So please understand I was only trolling  taking the pi$$ a little, the forum after all has been very quiet of late

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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 13 at 7:05pm
Not stirring Clive, asking difficult questions that you don't like maybe.  (Which you appear to have ally in Mike when asked by folks who aren't currently sailing said class.)

As for the other dig, 'my standards'... hmm isn't that the market though?  Numpties who can't handle a proper skiff, but at least honest enough to admit it?  Search through the original thread before Nick announced the RS100... go on, look at it.  Besides not all us have written the book on pond sailing y'know, so let's not judge everyone by your standards either, hmm?  

FWIW I never had much trouble holding Lasers once it worth rigging and leech didn't hook either.  I wouldn't be so bold as to say that about the few times I sailed with the 8.4 though.  I choose my weapon accordingly, and when I choose wrong I was punished- as per Winter Champs when I didn't even bother packing the 10.2 as it was going to be 'epic'... feckin' windguru!!!!   

If you went through this thread and others you will see how I scoffed at those who did claim the Laser was a difficult adversary, back when I was pimping the class.  LOL  I seem to recall that before the FOM the very subject came up, and indeed the RS100s were invited to prove the point, but for some reason none of you showed up.... maybe the abundence of D1s put you off- I wouldn't have worried though, the boat that looked 'the best' out there was Holman's thing, closely followed by the X1 and the Finn.  (I can pretend not to like just to be 'stirring' if you want?   Wink) 

 Secondly, I'm also sure that if I was sailing at under the proposed weight of 86kg on the big rig I wouldn't have had any issues in the lighter stuff either.... although I'm not sure how that squares off under RRS if you end racing not in compliance with the class rules matey.  Akin to me dumping the lead out of my Solo, or Tim sticking them D1 wings out before the scales give him the OK....  some might call that cheating, ooh threads have turned nasty on less.

Joking aside, I certainly think that creates another handicap frustration for the guys doing their best to accommodate the various iterations RS100 in the PY system.  Although this is likely to be one those items which flies under the radar.... who realistically will weigh a sailor before a handicap sailing event just to check their weight eq. settings are within class rules????

What does that now make:

RS100 8.4
RS100 10.2 (86kg+)
RS100 10.2 (<86kg)
RS100 7.4

and the rumoured new sail too???  That's not one ISAF class, it's five, well it will be the moment you officially split the fleets with the proposed rule change.

Really, you expect the PY system to keep up with that and for clubs to return accurately?

You say:

But what has become clear is that a 10.2 sailed by a 92kg sailor will beat an 8.4 sailed equally well by someone of 80kg in nearly all conditions - and this is reflected in the PYS.

But that is most certainly NOT reflected in the PYS.  How can it be?  Have resulted already been submitted to the RYA which state the sailor weight?  I think not....  therefore any results to date are totally absent of meaningful statistics about the sailor weight.

I do agree with you that it needn't be 'calamitous' for a weekend away, but the truth is, we all know that this likely to be the end of the 10.2 sail at championship events.  Let's be honest, take out the works boats and you had 4 entries to the 10.2 nationals last year.  That's crap... no point pimping otherwise.  So I can see the logic in dumping the 10.2, focusing on the rig that sailors have gravitated towards and pushing it as modern athletic alternative to the Laser masters.  That is evolution, and yes, you should do it, but perhaps honesty and integrity demands a clearer statement? 

Getting rid of the rig confusion many of us were reticent about in the first place, is probably the right decision, it's just 3 years too late.   However, to say this action isn't 'splitting the fleet' is just bullsh*t, of course it does, THAT'S THE POINT! 

The acid test will be to see how many 10.2 sailors there are at the 2014 Nationals... I guess you can always wheel in a few ringers and foreigners to bump the numbers up.... or you can all come clean and be honest.  Which appears to be one design racing at circuit level, a bit of pick and choose at club level.... welcome to your new place in club sailing el bandito....  LOL




Edited by pondmonkey - 16 May 13 at 7:28pm
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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1635 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 13 at 8:49pm
Ruscoe

No problem - but we will call that a 'take' then ....'perhaps I was really taking the 'whatsit' out of you as well ....  Wink 

Mike L.
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Seems the 100 is destined to follow the 300, 600 & 700
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Posts: 521 		Post Options Post Options   Quote haroosh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 13 at 9:34pm
I think the 100 will have a good future as fundamentally it is a relatively easy and attainable boat to sail at club or circuit level. It can be sailed anywhere unlike a lot of other boats. For me the main issue to any relatively newish design is the cost. The cheapest 100's are still around the 5k mark so once prices drop further as older boats become more widely available I think a lot more folks would join the class. Everyone I have ever given a shot of mine has really liked it but said they just could not justify the price. Maybe I just don't many well off folks???
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 13 at 10:52pm
Pondmonkey

I am not going to answer all those points, we will end up with another book! And mine incidentally is definitely not just for pond sailors - it's for all Club Sailors. I was brought up sailing on an estuary and outside the harbour on the wavy, salty stuff. 

My point about the PYS was driven by the fact the 10.2 and 8.4 now have different yardstick numbers, that was all. Vis weight, my point is simply that over 10knts, under that weight you will really struggle on open water against the big guys. No different to me trying to sail a Finn at 80kg and 5ft 10.

But is does n't matter how great a sailor you are, or not, the fallacy that you will get your arse handed to you by lasers needs majorly kicking into touch. You said it, but its just wrong. You can sail RTC in a 100 and be as competitive as you would be in a laser, wherever that would put you. Of course the 100 provides the occasional extra challenge to sail but it took me years to master the ironing board thing too.

As to the end of the 10.2, I don't see the logic. There is a rule tweak proposed. It's not been voted upon. It may never get passed. There are too many speculations on inferences on assumptions on assumptions here. Anyone would think this was a talking shop...

But back in the real world, the boat is blinking good fun, the racing is getting tighter and better than ever and the craic ashore is superb. And at my club people coo over how cool looking my boat is and how sensational it looks when it picks up its skirts and flies. As Haroosh says, anyone you lend it to for a go, loves it. I accept it's not a boat for someone who has just got their RYA level 2 badge, but really, what's not to like*


*grf will probably now spout on about not being able to get back in from in the water. But as any fule kno, use the righting lines to ensure you are on top of the plate when you bring it upright from a capsize and better yet don't fall in the water is you do pi$$ it in.
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Posts: 346 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Kev M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 13 at 11:12pm
If I'd known there was a revised Halo sail coming that fitted the ally mast I might have been tempted to keep my Blaze.  
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