New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Replica Laser/Torch parts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Replica Laser/Torch parts

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456>
Author
Chris 249 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041
Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Replica Laser/Torch parts
    Posted: 29 Apr 13 at 11:23pm
McLaren could probably raise the cash easily enough, OK. But there are other Laser builders who don't appear to have such backing, and down here in Oz when I was in the industry cash flow was a significant problem; for example IIRC many people complained that Beneteau obtained their market domination because of the credit their government backing allowed them to extend to dealers. Local builders, by contrast, had to run overdrafts and often had major cash flow issues as a result.

IIRC shipping a container load of Tasars interstate costs something like $2k/boat. Laser could get a better deal but at the last worlds down here they had to ship boats across the Tasman, with all that means in customs costs etc, and therefore the $1800 (approx) each boat earned in charter fees across the two regattas does not seem to be enough to have created a profit.

Basically I'm just saying that no one has really produced evidence to show that the Laser pricing (down here at least) is such a profiteer's dream.
Back to Top
RS400atC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 04 Dec 08
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3011
Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 13 at 12:27am
$2k oz is about £600?
I think you can ship a container across an ocean for about £2k, and that is a lot of lasers.
To have one trucked anywhere is some hundreds of pounds a day.
But these events are a lot of money in hotels for officials etc, same as anything at world level.
There is usually sponsorship too.
But that just creates a need for someone on £50k a year to liaise with sponsors.

The sailing can get lost in the noise...
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 13 at 7:04am
Originally posted by RS400atC

$2k oz is about £600?.


Ha! It might have been once upon a time, but no more. It's about £1300 these days.
Back to Top
pondmonkey View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 12 Aug 11
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2202
Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 13 at 7:18am
Your geography is very very challenging from a distribution business's perspective Chris!  

I have seen on several occasions a mutli stacker with 6 maybe 8 new lasers on the road from Banbury to Northampton - when you can handle internal logistics in-house, using lower grade commercial equipment - trailers and vans in this case, then you can realise some quite good savings over outsourced shipping and distribution.
Back to Top
PeterG View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 12 Jan 08
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 822
Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 13 at 10:45am
Basically I'm just saying that no one has really produced evidence to show that the Laser pricing (down here at least) is such a profiteer's dream.

Not entirely sure I agree with that. Most importantly the figures quoted earlier in this thread on leasing costs (at major events) plus subsequent resale costs seem to suggest that there is little, if any real subsidy.

However even if there were, for me a more fundamental point would be - what is the justification for that business model? If I buy a Contender new, or spares for it, I don't expect to pay a significant mark up on cost to support class events, I support those by being a member of the CA, and paying if I take part in them. Why should it be assumed that 99+% of Laser sailors who never take part in Nationals or Worlds should subsidise them (if they in fact do)?
Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59
Back to Top
jeffers View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 29 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3048
Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 13 at 11:58am
Originally posted by Chris 249

Basically I'm just saying that no one has really produced evidence to show that the Laser pricing (down here at least) is such a profiteer's dream.

Well in the UK they were selling rolled from new sails for around £450 (not including battens and numbers).

When they were trying to fight the replica war you could get a bulk discount where they would match the price of the Rooster Replica (which was £220 in battens and numbers), I am told from a reliable inside source that they would still make money on the deal.

Now you tell me they are not profiteering.....at least in the UK before it all fell apart...

The stupid thing is had they kept the sail price reasonable people would still have moaned but as the sails were cheap enough they would have carried on buying them (I certainly would have).

Now they have nothing.....
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
Back to Top
pondmonkey View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 12 Aug 11
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2202
Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 13 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by jeffers



Now they have nothing.....

au contraire... now they have ILCA and ISAF endorsement and a nail in Kirby's coffin.

They can ride out the short term hiccup and return to business as normal in due course.

I used to think your best solution was to change classes... yay, come join the solos, more the merrier!  Get in quick, you'll come eventually anyway...

... but it seems Kirby's thought differently and all you need to do is download a new insignia and stick it on a replica sail for the time being.  All to be grandfathered in due course.  An infinitely more economical solution than buying a Solo. 
Back to Top
Chris 249 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041
Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 13 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by PeterG

Basically I'm just saying that no one has really produced evidence to show that the Laser pricing (down here at least) is such a profiteer's dream.

Not entirely sure I agree with that. Most importantly the figures quoted earlier in this thread on leasing costs (at major events) plus subsequent resale costs seem to suggest that there is little, if any real subsidy.

However even if there were, for me a more fundamental point would be - what is the justification for that business model? If I buy a Contender new, or spares for it, I don't expect to pay a significant mark up on cost to support class events, I support those by being a member of the CA, and paying if I take part in them. Why should it be assumed that 99+% of Laser sailors who never take part in Nationals or Worlds should subsidise them (if they in fact do)?

1- I saw figures of 400 pounds here for charter fees. Down here for the Terrigal worlds the charter fee was 300 pounds ($450 Oz these days) for 9 days charter (say 25 hours racing +).

That equates to 20 hours of hire at Queen Mary SC hourly rates, and I assume that QMSC is not hiring out new or one-regatta-old boats. Sure, it's not strictly comparable but that runs both ways - QMSC are not delivering the boats and they are used. So that worlds charter fee seems to be a reasonable rate rather than extortion.

In comparison, for the World Masters Games the going rate to charter out a Tasar privately for the regatta was a new set of sails - about $1900. The rate of a new set of sails for a regatta fee is a reasonably widely accepted one down here, across a number of classes. So by that ratio, Laser are hiring brand new boats for about 60% of the going rate.

As a very different comparison, a week's hire of a top end bicycle racing wheelset is around $200+, which represents a similar or costlier hire/purchase ratio to the Laser.

So I'm still not convinced that there is not a significant cost in the provision of charter boats that has to be found somewhere. 

2- If the X% of Laser sailors don't want to support the Laser model then being intelligent folk, they can go and get a different boat. They don't, therefore it obviously suits them.

I was going to charter a boat for the Masters worlds a few years back but (as has happened before in my Laser sailing  :-(   ) copped an injury that stopped me training and therefore I used my '88 boat. So arguably I got the worst of both worlds; I sailed the titles I was subsidising AND used an old boat. 

I still don't mind it if I did subsidise the worlds. I take good care of my gear and have only ever bought one new sail (same as my brother, who got to 25th in the Open Worlds and also won a district title against that year's open world champ, and won the Youth Nats in a multi-year campaign using just 1 new sail, 1 borrowed sail and a charter sail for the Worlds!) and paying a bit extra so that I can be part of a class that gets such huge worlds fleets is well worth it to me.

If others differ there are many other wonderful boats out there.

I have also been involved in running associations and from many aspects I would LOVE to have had a profit-driven manufacturer involved.

Sure, Rastegar is stuffing things up, but one bad builder does not equal a bad class.






Back to Top
pondmonkey View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 12 Aug 11
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2202
Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 13 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

 

Sure, Rastegar is stuffing things up, but one bad builder does not equal a bad class.


so true- but it is also possible to have a bad class association supporting Rastegar and delivering misinformation to their membership in a critical vote.

If I were a Laser sailor, I'd call for a vote of no confidence in the ILCA... 

actually, I wouldn't; I'd just say b**locks and treat myself to a new Rooster sail and ask for a Torch logo to be put on it, thus leaving a couple of hundred quid to pay for beer.  


Edited by pondmonkey - 30 Apr 13 at 1:14pm
Back to Top
RS400atC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 04 Dec 08
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3011
Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 13 at 1:20pm
Originally posted by pondmonkey

....
actually, I wouldn't; I'd just say b**locks and treat myself to a new Rooster sail and ask for a Torch logo to be put on it, thus leaving a couple of hundred quid to pay for beer.  
 
But would you get involved in a Torch CA?
or even a Rooster Sail owner's association?
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy