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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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    Posted: 30 Mar 13 at 7:49pm
Glad to see you seem to be getting the point in the second paragraph your last post, GRF - you need moor up to the buoy for speed over the ground to make any odds.

I would hope, Bootscooter, that if the sailboard were going at 10 knots it would be planing, else we are talking about a real mega-length board here.  

But the question originally asked was, in your terms, "why [with the true wind on the beam] will the sailboard go at 12 knots in the up-tide direction relative to the water but slower in the opposite direction?".  

The speed difference means that the drag of the water on the sailboard will be higher in the one direction than the other.  It follows that the thrust generated by the rig of the sailboardboard must be higher in the one direction than the other.  

So the question translates as "why does the rig generate more thrust in one direction than the other?"

The answer the wise respondents have been giving is that it is because the angle of the apparent wind is freer going up-tide than down-tide. 

It is interesting to note that the strength of the apparent wind will be stronger when the sailboard is going down-tide, since the 'board's speed through the water and the tide are additive, but despite this James was generating more thrust going up-tide thanks to the force vector being more forwardly directed at the point where he was about to plane.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bootscooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 13 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by pondmonkey


Here's one for you Graeme, yesterday windsurfing in an offshore easterly at Daymer.  For those not familiar with the Geography, it's a cornish river estuary, so for this example assume cross wind to river flow.  It's marginal planing breeze, enough to water start in the gusts, 7.7 NP sail (so relatively big) and riding a 113L board (neutral buoyancy once the rigs on it and I'm neoprened-up like a sex pest)
Sailing into the the tide (flood) I could get planing on stb.  Sailing with the tide I couldn't... weird or just goofy/regular riding issues?




That there is the original question. It is not asking about speed, but is asking about planing.
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 13 at 9:24pm
Interesting, so you are suggesting he may have been planing but not going faster?  Not impossible, I guess, but unlikely here, I'd suggest.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bootscooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 13 at 9:48pm
Not at all. I'm just saying that the question asked why he was planning on one tack and not the other. The answer is to do with the different speeds of the water over the hull due to tide, not apparent wind effect. He may well have had a greater (GPS) speed on the non planning tack due to tidal assistance if he was only just planning on the up-tide tack, but that wasn't the question.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 13 at 10:52pm
Originally posted by Bootscooter

Not at all. I'm just saying that the question asked why he was planning on one tack and not the other. The answer is to do with the different speeds of the water over the hull due to tide, not apparent wind effect. He may well have had a greater (GPS) speed on the non planning tack due to tidal assistance if he was only just planning on the up-tide tack, but that wasn't the question.

So you interpret my "go at 12 knots in the up-tide direction relative to the water but slower in the opposite direction" as GPS speed? How do you make that out?  I'm clearly talking about speed through (or over in the case of planing) the water), which was, as you say what the question concerned.

The GPS speed is relevant, however, in establishing the apparent wind speed and angle, and that is, I believe, the key to the answer.  I'm not at all sure I understand your answer to the original question; what do you think causes the, in your words, " increased flow of water relative to the hull"?


Edited by Medway Maniac - 30 Mar 13 at 10:58pm
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Bootscooter View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bootscooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 13 at 11:17pm
No, the original question was Pondmonkey's, as quoted earlier. No mention of speed, just planing ability.

(well through a bottle of Bordeaux now, so not sure I can properly contribute at this time )

Edited by Bootscooter - 30 Mar 13 at 11:24pm
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 13 at 12:44am
OK Brace you stirrer (notice you've been quietly wisely enjoying Cornwall since posing this one. Me too actually) which explanation strikes a chord with you?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote mongrel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 13 at 8:07am
What Bootscooter is saying makes the most sense to me.
Fab100 & 2547 I think are trying to convince themselves they're right, but the more they write, the less confident they seem to be LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 13 at 9:15am
Current doesn't change the flow over the hull unless you anchor. If you are floating free the water is your reference. I'm pretty sure no anchor was mentioned. 
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 13 at 10:43am
I'm happy that our apparent wind explanation is the only one likely in the scenario originally described, with the true wind square to the direction of travel.  I do find it difficult to believe, however, that it could make such a difference as that between planing and not planing.

Most likely is that the course or the tide were not quite square to the wind.  The explanation would still lie in apparent wind (so far as I can see no other has been offered other than by people who think the 'board is effectively tethered to the ground) but the numbers might look more convincing. 

Regrettably, I have to go sailing myself now. The WSC Icebreaker seems to be living up to its name, unfortunately. I'm going for record number of layers under the drysuit; motion, apparent or otherwise, is secondary.
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