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NickA View Drop Down
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Posts: 784 		Post Options Post Options   Quote NickA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Playing the main
    Posted: 25 Feb 13 at 7:38pm
Originally posted by Oatsandbeans

The ideal is to have the response of the rig automatic. So that as the gust hits the topmast bends off and at the hounds it moves to windward. 

Sadly, the RS500 (and the V3000 for that matter - I'm not being biased) have very stiff masts compared to the bethwaite boats (29er etc).  The RS 500 tries to compensate with a fatter head in the main, but it seems to cause people more trouble than help (lots of power up top).

Both classes would benefit from carbon masts ...or even a 29er style flippy top bit... but I don't see it happening for a few years yet.  We'll all have to learn to sail properly instead!
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NickA View Drop Down
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Posts: 784 		Post Options Post Options   Quote NickA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 13 at 7:32pm
Originally posted by PhilHigh

It is not permitted in the 500 for the crew to take the main except in exceptional cirumstances(like when the helm falls out!) .  


If you head to any of the 500 events people are always happy to help people out and answer questions. 

These dumb rules that RS impose on their boats to keep unsuitable pairings "competitive" ... and keep the sales up, presumably.  I believe it's supposed to stop people putting a gorilla on the wire who does everything but steer.  Surely you just put the gorilla on the tiller instead.  I don't know.  

Personally I'd only buy a boat that allowed me to sail it the best way possible.
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Posts: 4028 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 13 at 3:44pm
Of all the boats I've sailed, which is quite a few now, this, the RS500 was the most difficult. It has a very 'roachy' sail that doesn't depower very well at all, and neither the Gnav or downhaul seem to help much. In the end we opted for the sail it was apparently designed around and they added the big sail later which then became the standard. So when it was over 20 kts, the smaller sail worked OK for us.

Like they all say back there, judging what kind of gust it is helps, if it's a lift then luffing into it to begin with then ease the sheet if it's still over powering you. There's a stack of weather helm on the 500 anyway so luffing is never a problem.

The headers are your problem, they fool you into thinking there's more wind, which there is, but because it's a header you're likely to dunk your crew because the wind isn't side on enough to support him/her, you have got to bear off and ease the sheet then reacquire all pretty simultaneously and that boat is really awkward at doing that. As it is equally awkward sailing a tight fetch, there's just something about it, I didn't keep it long enough to find out really, but it's to do with the rocker and hull shape about a third back from the nose, never easily finds a sweet spot.


Edited by G.R.F. - 16 Feb 13 at 3:45pm
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ellistine View Drop Down
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Posts: 762 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ellistine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 12:42pm
Thanks John and Phil. I'll tell the wife she has to look out for what you described. She'll love that  Wink
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Posts: 8 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PhilHigh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 13 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by ellistine

Originally posted by PhilHigh

One thing I find really handy is to make sure the gusts and lulls are called out before they get to the boat, also calling if it looks like a lift or header.  
I should probably know this by now but how do you know if it's lift or a header?
As the gust approaches you can watch the line of wind on the water and see the angle it is appoarching. 
 
Here goes with a couple of diagrams(extreme examples).
 
|    Gust direction
V
-----------  Line of wind on water
 
^  Boat travelling upwind
|
 
So in this case the line of wind is going to hit square on the nose of the boat and the gust will be a massive header.
                                       |
   Boat                   ^       | <-  Gust Direction
   Heading              |        |
   Upwind                        |
                                  Line of wind on water

This time the line of wind is going to hit square along the side of the boat and will be a massive lift. 
 
 

 
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oatsandbeans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 9:38pm
The ideal is to have the response of the rig automatic. So that as the gust hits the topmast bends off and at the hounds it moves to windward. 

 To do this you need to tune the sideways stiffness of the mast to your crew weight, by your spreader length. You want the rig to hold up sideways until you are at max power and then you want it to start to bend off at the top and up (slightly ) at the hounds, when the heeling force exceeds the righting moment.  This adjustment is quite sensitive and changes of 5-10mm in spreader length can be significant. 

Some boats will be closer to this 100% self adjusting ideal than others. Composite masts or top masts, and large roaches, will tend to make this easier to achieve. 

If you cannot get this auto-response from the rig the next best thing to do is to have 2 spreader length settings. One is used in winds up to 15 knots and the second, which is 15mm. shorter, is used above 15 knots. This has been found to be an effective route in classes such as the 505 where the rig profile is more conventional.
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JohnW View Drop Down
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Posts: 552 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 7:09pm
Originally posted by ellistine

Originally posted by PhilHigh

One thing I find really handy is to make sure the gusts and lulls are called out before they get to the boat, also calling if it looks like a lift or header.  
I should probably know this by now but how do you know if it's lift or a header?

Look at the wave ripples in the gust.  
If they are travelling nearer the bows, then its a header. If they are more from the windward side then a lift.

Easier to say than do though.
 
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Posts: 1314 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Neptune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by ellistine


Is this typical skiff methodology? I must admit, on the 800 playing the main whilst steering and trapezing can git a bit of handful when it's gusty. Would be great to get the rig sorted in such a way I could just lay back, relax and wiggle the tiller every now an then ;-)



If the boats balanced and you premept the gusts then only small movements of tiller and main are needed. Its when your slow that you start having to ship huge amounts of the stuff and when your trapezing that its starts getting a coordination issue....its what i have found on the Musto and teh 600 before anyway
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ellistine View Drop Down
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Posts: 762 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ellistine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by PhilHigh

One thing I find really handy is to make sure the gusts and lulls are called out before they get to the boat, also calling if it looks like a lift or header.  
I should probably know this by now but how do you know if it's lift or a header?
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PhilHigh View Drop Down
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Posts: 8 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PhilHigh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 13 at 4:51pm

It is not permitted in the 500 for the crew to take the main except in exceptional cirumstances(like when the helm falls out!) .  

One thing I find really handy is to make sure the gusts and lulls are called out before they get to the boat, also calling if it looks like a lift or header.  Allows you a little time to make sure you are prepared for when it hits.  
 
If you head to any of the 500 events people are always happy to help people out and answer questions. 
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